Two Plus Two Poker Forums How does GTO win?
 Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read TwoPlusTwo.com

 Poker Theory & GTO General and GTO related poker theory

 06-07-2021, 03:58 AM #26 dude45 adept   Join Date: Sep 2019 Posts: 848 Re: How does GTO win? Because their no anti strategy that can profit. Your only choices are to play to a draw or lose.
 06-07-2021, 04:02 AM #27 dude45 adept   Join Date: Sep 2019 Posts: 848 Re: How does GTO win? A question i have is If player A has a simple GTO strategy that uses 2 bet sizings per a street and player B has a strat that uses 10 per a street doesn't player B win?
06-07-2021, 04:32 AM   #28
aner0
old hand

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: https://discord.gg/TVbwaBHmhx
Posts: 1,590
Re: How does GTO win?

Quote:
 Originally Posted by dude45 A question i have is If player A has a simple GTO strategy that uses 2 bet sizings per a street and player B has a strat that uses 10 per a street doesn't player B win?
Yes. None of those 2 strategies are GTO, one is just closer

06-07-2021, 04:38 AM   #29
plexiq
veteran

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Vienna
Posts: 2,411
Re: How does GTO win?

Quote:
 Originally Posted by dude45 A question i have is If player A has a simple GTO strategy that uses 2 bet sizings per a street and player B has a strat that uses 10 per a street doesn't player B win?
Generally speaking, the strategies of both players are only GTO within their respective abstract games where no other bet sizes are allowed. They are not GTO for the actual full game.

If you confront these players with a sizing that isn't present in their solution then they will have to somehow approximate a reasonable strategy for that unknown sizing. How much of an edge they give up there depends entirely on the type of process that is used to approximate the strategy for the new line "on the fly".

06-07-2021, 05:20 AM   #30
aner0
old hand

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: https://discord.gg/TVbwaBHmhx
Posts: 1,590
Re: How does GTO win?

Quote:
 Originally Posted by plexiq Generally speaking, the strategies of both players are only GTO within their respective abstract games where no other bet sizes are allowed. They are not GTO for the actual full game. If you confront these players with a sizing that isn't present in their solution then they will have to somehow approximate a reasonable strategy for that unknown sizing. How much of an edge they give up there depends entirely on the type of process that is used to approximate the strategy for the new line "on the fly".
Let's say the 2 sizing sim could resolve the new sizing it's facing along the 2 default ones. Even then, it would lose EV to the 10 sizing one.

 06-07-2021, 05:33 AM #31 plexiq veteran   Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Vienna Posts: 2,411 Re: How does GTO win? Depends. If all of player A's sizings are covered in player B's solution then player B will have an edge, I guess that's the scenario you have in mind. But if A's sizes are not fully covered in B's solution then it's perfectly possible that player A could have an edge, even when using fewer sizes.
06-07-2021, 05:36 AM   #32
aner0
old hand

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: https://discord.gg/TVbwaBHmhx
Posts: 1,590
Re: How does GTO win?

Quote:
 Originally Posted by plexiq Depends. If all of player A's sizings are covered in player B's solution then player B will have an edge, I guess that's the scenario you have in mind. But if A's sizes are not fully covered in B's solution then it's perfectly possible that player A could have an edge, even when using fewer sizes.
Yeah I was talking about a case where they are covered

 06-07-2021, 07:07 AM #33 Yeodan veteran     Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Belgium, Antwerp Posts: 3,050 Re: How does GTO win? This has become a very interesting thread!
 06-08-2021, 02:10 PM #35 Yeodan veteran     Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Belgium, Antwerp Posts: 3,050 Re: How does GTO win? Could you explain why only playing (1,2) and (2,1) would be GTO or admissible? I don't really see a reason why those are better than the other options.
06-08-2021, 02:51 PM   #36
JustLuck
veteran

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: germanys first female supernova
Posts: 2,144
Re: How does GTO win?

Quote:
 Originally Posted by aner0 Yeah I was talking about a case where they are covered
Even if the sizings are covered by the other player it still isn't that straightforward.
Let's say Player A is playing a strategy consisting of 1 sizing of say 25%. They will construct their betting (and checking) ranges in a different way than player B who uses 25/50/75/100 % for example.

The "gto" response vs bet 25% will be different against both players.

So for practical purposes less sizings are usually better. The goal is to solve and study strategies that we can implement. Arguing that more Sizings is closer to "gto" might be technically correct but in the real world it's not about being closer to GTO but rather about implementing your simplified strategies.

TLDR: Stop mashing infinite sizings into the solver and instead learn to execute your (dumbed down) strategy. That part is hard enough.

OP: GTO wins because unlike in rock,paper scissors every hand has an EV for every action you choose. Whether that's bluffing or value betting. Some hands have higher EV bluffing. Some hands have a higher EV as checks.
Simply put you win by taking the highest ev line more often than your opponents.

Last edited by JustLuck; 06-08-2021 at 03:03 PM.

 06-08-2021, 03:00 PM #37 CallMeVernon COTM Crusher   Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Not Vancouver, BC Posts: 3,481 Re: How does GTO win? At risk of derailing the thread, here's a quick explanation of how you can conclude I'm right about what the GTO strategy is. (1,2) can only be beaten by (1,1), and you lose 2 every time that happens. On the other hand, (2,1) beats (1,1) and you win 3 every time that happens. So you can't be exploited by playing (1,2) as long as you play (2,1) often enough. "Often enough" here means you have to play (2,1) at least 2/5 of the time. At 2/5 (2,1) and 3/5 (1,2), your EV against (1,1) is (2/5)(3) + (3/5)(-2) = 0 Any more than that and you will show a profit against (1,1). (2,1) can only be beaten by (2,2) and you lose 4 every time that happens. But (1,2) beats (2,2) and you win 3 every time that happens. So by similar logic as above, if you play (1,2) 4/7 of the time and (2,1) the rest of the time, you can't be exploited by (2,2), since (4/7)(3) + (3/7)(-4) = 0 Any more than 4/7 and you will show a profit against (2,2). Now the key observation here is that 4/7 is less than 3/5. So if you pick any number in the interval (4/7, 3/5) and play (1,2) at that frequency and (2,1) the rest of the time, you will break even against (1,2) and (2,1) and you will profit against both (1,1) and (2,2). If you try to carry out this exercise for the other two strategies, you hit a contradiction (since 2/5 is less than 3/7, you CAN be exploited if you play (1,1) or (2,2) at any frequency).
06-08-2021, 03:49 PM   #38
aner0
old hand

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: https://discord.gg/TVbwaBHmhx
Posts: 1,590
Re: How does GTO win?

Quote:
 Originally Posted by JustLuck Even if the sizings are covered by the other player it still isn't that straightforward. Let's say Player A is playing a strategy consisting of 1 sizing of say 25%. They will construct their betting (and checking) ranges in a different way than player B who uses 25/50/75/100 % for example. The "gto" response vs bet 25% will be different against both players. So for practical purposes less sizings are usually better. The goal is to solve and study strategies that we can implement. Arguing that more Sizings is closer to "gto" might be technically correct but in the real world it's not about being closer to GTO but rather about implementing your simplified strategies. TLDR: Stop mashing infinite sizings into the solver and instead learn to execute your (dumbed down) strategy. That part is hard enough. OP: GTO wins because unlike in rock,paper scissors every hand has an EV for every action you choose. Whether that's bluffing or value betting. Some hands have higher EV bluffing. Some hands have a higher EV as checks. Simply put you win by taking the highest ev line more often than your opponents.
What? We are not talking about humans, we are talking about 2 sims playing each other. More sizings = less abstacted GTO. Less abstracted GTO will beat the worse abstraction, no way around it. And the main reason is precisely because the worse abstraction's response to sizings will lead to huge EV losses.

GTO doesn't lose to 1 sizing abstraction when it misreads their range, because that's how GTO works, it doesnt care if villain plays different from GTO, it still can't lose
But 1 sizing abstraction does lose a shitload when it misreads GTO's range.

Last edited by aner0; 06-08-2021 at 03:56 PM.

06-08-2021, 04:31 PM   #39
JustLuck
veteran

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: germanys first female supernova
Posts: 2,144
Re: How does GTO win?

Quote:
 Originally Posted by aner0 What? We are not talking about humans, we are talking about 2 sims playing each other. More sizings = less abstacted GTO. Less abstracted GTO will beat the worse abstraction, no way around it. And the main reason is precisely because the worse abstraction's response to sizings will lead to huge EV losses. GTO doesn't lose to 1 sizing abstraction when it misreads their range, because that's how GTO works, it doesnt care if villain plays different from GTO, it still can't lose But 1 sizing abstraction does lose a shitload when it misreads GTO's range.
Okay so just making sure I understand you correctly. The way to use PIO is to mash in as many sizings as humanly possible so you have an accurate counter to any sizing your opponent can throw at you?

Because as you put it "gto will respond well to the 1 sizing abstraction". Well I disagree with that.

The GTO response to a 1 sizing abstraction is very to different to the GTO response to a strategy that splits between 2 sizings (even if the sizing is included in your gto sim)

I never once claimed that the smaller sizing abstraction would win in a HU match. That's not even relevant. All I'm saying is you can't keep adding more sizes and claim to have an "optimal response".

edit: You are correct more sizing is closer to GTO. I'm not arguing that. Just saying that it's only GTO against another player playing the same strategy. If they play a different sizing strategy (with more,less or even just different betsizings / raise sizings) your GTO solution won't be the perfect response.

Figured this was important enough to point out because some beginners might get confused and think "more sizings are better" as a result.

Last edited by JustLuck; 06-08-2021 at 04:45 PM.

06-08-2021, 05:53 PM   #40
aner0
old hand

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: https://discord.gg/TVbwaBHmhx
Posts: 1,590
Re: How does GTO win?

Quote:
 Originally Posted by JustLuck Okay so just making sure I understand you correctly. The way to use PIO is to mash in as many sizings as humanly possible so you have an accurate counter to any sizing your opponent can throw at you? Because as you put it "gto will respond well to the 1 sizing abstraction". Well I disagree with that. The GTO response to a 1 sizing abstraction is very to different to the GTO response to a strategy that splits between 2 sizings (even if the sizing is included in your gto sim) I never once claimed that the smaller sizing abstraction would win in a HU match. That's not even relevant. All I'm saying is you can't keep adding more sizes and claim to have an "optimal response". edit: You are correct more sizing is closer to GTO. I'm not arguing that. Just saying that it's only GTO against another player playing the same strategy. If they play a different sizing strategy (with more,less or even just different betsizings / raise sizings) your GTO solution won't be the perfect response. Figured this was important enough to point out because some beginners might get confused and think "more sizings are better" as a result.

But now that we get into the practicality of it, yes, i believe having a few sizings will be very beneficial over just 1, for the main reason that defenses against a bet in a 1 sizing sim are dogshit.

And to touch on the "GTO vs a different strategy" thing. Yes, GTO will not be maximally efficient against a leaky strategy, but in the case of facing a 1 sizing abstraction, it will be a good chunk better, even though there would be a different strategy (Hard splits based on hand strength), that would exploit the 1 sizing sim even more.

06-08-2021, 06:17 PM   #41
JustLuck
veteran

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: germanys first female supernova
Posts: 2,144
Re: How does GTO win?

Quote:
 Originally Posted by aner0 I'm not even talking about what's practical, just about theoretical concepts. But now that we get into the practicality of it, yes, i believe having a few sizings will be very beneficial over just 1, for the main reason that defenses against a bet in a 1 sizing sim are dogshit. And to touch on the "GTO vs a different strategy" thing. Yes, GTO will not be maximally efficient against a leaky strategy, but in the case of facing a 1 sizing abstraction, it will be a good chunk better, even though there would be a different strategy (Hard splits based on hand strength), that would exploit the 1 sizing sim even more.
See the point is that a 10 sizing strategy isn't GTO either. Please stop calling it "gto".
It's only GTO as long as your opponent cooperates by using the exact sizings you input. Any deviation on their sim input would lead to a different GTO strategy based on their inputs. Whether they use one or 4 sizings in their sims.

For that reason it simply doesn't matter whether you have "their bet sizes covered" in your sim. If that was how it worked poker would be dead because every idiot could build a perfect bot in a couple weeks. Just run a PIO sim with infinite sizings and suddenly you are unbeatable.

I'm trying to understand where we disagree. do you think it's enough to simply cover the betsize in your sim and that will give you an answer against any strategy involving that size? Because well... it's not.

Last edited by JustLuck; 06-08-2021 at 06:26 PM.

06-08-2021, 06:43 PM   #42
aner0
old hand

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: https://discord.gg/TVbwaBHmhx
Posts: 1,590
Re: How does GTO win?

Quote:
 Originally Posted by JustLuck See the point is that a 10 sizing strategy isn't GTO either. Please stop calling it "gto". It's only GTO as long as your opponent cooperates by using the exact sizings you input. Any deviation on their sim input would lead to a different GTO strategy based on their inputs. Whether they use one or 4 sizings in their sims. For that reason it simply doesn't matter whether you have "their bet sizes covered" in your sim. If that was how it worked poker would be dead because every idiot could build a perfect bot in a couple weeks. Just run a PIO sim with infinite sizings and suddenly you are unbeatable. I'm trying to understand where we disagree. do you think it's enough to simply cover the betsize in your sim and that will give you an answer against any strategy involving that size? Because well... it's not.
I know that using the word GTO for a bunch of different things gets confusing, but I think you get my point when I say that what I'm matching up is a 10 sizing sim vs a 1 sizing sim.

To your second point. It's very funny that you think if someone could run a pio sim of every single spot with a **** ton of sizings that bot wouldn't be practically unbeatable by a human. Yes it would. And no, no one in their home has the computing power to solve this, that's the only reason why poker is not dead lol.

My point is that a defense in a 1 sizing sim is very exploitable, while a defense on a 2 sizing sim is way less exploitable, and so on.

06-08-2021, 07:03 PM   #43
JustLuck
veteran

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: germanys first female supernova
Posts: 2,144
Re: How does GTO win?

Quote:
 Originally Posted by aner0 I know that using the word GTO for a bunch of different things gets confusing, but I think you get my point when I say that what I'm matching up is a 10 sizing sim vs a 1 sizing sim. To your second point. It's very funny that you think if someone could run a pio sim of every single spot with a **** ton of sizings that bot wouldn't be practically unbeatable by a human. Yes it would. And no, no one in their home has the computing power to solve this, that's the only reason why poker is not dead lol. My point is that a defense in a 1 sizing sim is very exploitable, while a defense on a 2 sizing sim is way less exploitable, and so on.
It's important to be precise when discussing concepts like GTO. Strictly speaking neither sim is GTO against the other sim. They will both be leaking EV (both vs "true gto" and the other players fake GTO) thus they are not optimal.
Even if you include my betsize in your sim. It will still give you the wrong answer against my strategy. Because you didn't solve for my strategy.
"but it's close enough" no. close doesn't exist in GTO. Close = wrong.

As for your other point.Well.... Software like this is out there. (for training purposes) but no professional uses it because it doesn't accurately represent the game tree. They assume a 4 sizing spit on any street and the result is utter nonsense. No river range resembles what a real river range looks like etc etc.
It really isn't as easy as mashing in more sizings = better answers.

Again I agree the 10 sizing sim would win. That's obvious I just strongly disagree that "covering my size" even matters.

In the bet 25% only node the 10 sizing sim will leak EV by responding incorrectly.
edit:

also correct this software would smash a human. but that can be said about even simplified bots with only a few sizings sadly.

Last edited by JustLuck; 06-08-2021 at 07:18 PM.

06-08-2021, 07:12 PM   #44
aner0
old hand

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: https://discord.gg/TVbwaBHmhx
Posts: 1,590
Re: How does GTO win?

Quote:
 Originally Posted by JustLuck It's important to be precise when discussing concepts like GTO. Strictly speaking neither sim is GTO against the other sim. They will both be leaking EV (both vs "true gto" and the other players fake GTO) thus they are not optimal. Even if you include my betsize in your sim. It will still give you the wrong answer against my strategy. Because you didn't solve for my strategy. "but it's close enough" no. close doesn't exist in GTO. Close = wrong. As for your other point.Well.... Software like this is out there. (for training purposes) but no professional uses it because it doesn't accurately represent the game tree. They assume a 4 sizing spit on any street and the result is utter nonsense. No river range resembles what a real river range looks like etc etc. It really isn't as easy as mashing in more sizings = better answers.
The 10 sizing sim is a toygame within NLHE, just as much as the 1 sizing sim is a toygame within the 10 sizing game. Therefor, in that 10 sizing game, the 10 sizing sim is the absolute GTO (leakless) while the 1 sizing sim has leaks. The only way to exploit the 10 sizing sim in NLHE would be to play more sizings than it accounts for.

You are making the understandable mistake of thinking that every response to a bet that's not assuming the correct betting range is just as bad. It's not.

The responses to bets in the "10 sizing GTO" will have break even or positive expectation versus every possible strategy within that 10 sizing game, even if they are misreading the actual betting range (for example, by villain having only 1 betsizing on that node).

On the other hand, the responses to bets by the "1 sizing GTO" will have break even or NEGATIVE expectation in the "10 sizing game".

I can't really say much more to have you understand this, so I'll leave it at that.

EDIT: The reason professional players don't play while looking at cloud sims is because its against the rules and they would get banned. If they were to follow those outputs they would beat people even if those people played differently, it doesn't matter that the river range in the sim is way different from how human villain plays, sim still wins. Plus, the sims are not that great because we don't have the computing power to make great ones yet.

EDIT2: I just reread and saw you meant that no professional uses Training (not RTA) software with 4+ sizings per node because its useles... What are you talking about? I play professionally and I train like this, and I know plenty others who do aswell.

Last edited by aner0; 06-08-2021 at 07:26 PM.

06-08-2021, 07:44 PM   #45
JustLuck
veteran

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: germanys first female supernova
Posts: 2,144
Re: How does GTO win?

Quote:
 Originally Posted by aner0 You are making the understandable mistake of thinking that every response to a bet that's not assuming the correct betting range is just as bad. It's not. The responses to bets in the "10 sizing GTO" will have break even or positive expectation versus every possible strategy within that 10 sizing game, even if they are misreading the actual betting range (for example, by villain having only 1 betsizing on that node). On the other hand, the responses to bets by the "1 sizing GTO" will have break even or NEGATIVE expectation in the "10 sizing game".
1) Yes. Yes it is. I don't know why this is difficult to understand for you but in order to calculate a counter you need precise inputs. If the betting range is different the optimal counter strategy will be different too. Thus your response to the size is WRONG. It's only right within your sim. It's wrong against any strategy that isn't your sim.
2) Incorrect. b25% only will beat a strategy that includes 25% as one of the sizing options. I mean beating in the sense of "outperforming the optimal counter strategy of b25%"
Again if you want to optimally counter b25% only YOU NEED TO SOLVE B25% ONLY!!!

regarding your 2nd edit. I build training software for MTTs(dto poker) that teaches simplified GTO strategy. I actually do believe that most people would be better of using less sizings in their training sims.

But that's mostly because of what we as humans can implement.

In general bet sizing perfection is hilarious overrated in poker.

edit: I'd also be happy to offer you a bet if you still don't believe me. We can run my b25% pot only on flop against your counter strat calculated based on as many sizings as you like.

DM me if you wanna work out details

Last edited by JustLuck; 06-08-2021 at 07:53 PM.

06-08-2021, 07:54 PM   #46
aner0
old hand

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: https://discord.gg/TVbwaBHmhx
Posts: 1,590
Re: How does GTO win?

Quote:
 Originally Posted by JustLuck 1) Yes. Yes it is. I don't know why this is difficult to understand for you but in order to calculate a counter you need precise inputs. If the betting range is different the optimal counter strategy will be different too. Thus your response to the size is WRONG. It's only right within your sim. It's wrong against any strategy that isn't your sim. 2) Incorrect. b25% only will beat a strategy that includes 25% as one of the sizing options. I mean beating in the sense of "outperforming the optimal counter strategy of b25%" Again if you want to optimally counter b25% only YOU NEED TO SOLVE B25% ONLY!!! regarding your 2nd edit. I build training software for MTTs(dto poker) that teaches simplified GTO strategy. I actually do believe that most people would be better of using less sizings in their training sims. But that's mostly because of what we as humans can implement. In general bet sizing perfection is hilarious overrated in poker.
Beating is NOT "Outperforming the optimal counter strategy", it means to literally match both strategies up and see who has a positive winrate and who doesn't. I know that to maximally exploit a 1 sizing sim you need to play a 1 sizing sim yourself, but that's not my point.

My point is that not every mistake is as severe. Defending "10-sizing style" vs a 1 sizing betting range is underperforming compared to the maximally exploitative strategy, yes. But not by a long stretch, by a very short one, we're talking in the 0.5%s.
On the other hand, defending "1-sizing style" vs a 10 sizing betting range will get absolutely demolished.

This is just a fact of poker theory, I'm not saying you should play like this. Of course you should try to play in the most profitable way against each villain, but that doesn't change how theory works.

06-08-2021, 08:16 PM   #47
JustLuck
veteran

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: germanys first female supernova
Posts: 2,144
Re: How does GTO win?

Quote:
 Originally Posted by aner0 Beating is NOT "Outperforming the optimal counter strategy", it means to literally match both strategies up and see who has a positive winrate and who doesn't. I know that to maximally exploit a 1 sizing sim you need to play a 1 sizing sim yourself, but that's not my point. My point is that not every mistake is as severe. Defending "10-sizing style" vs a 1 sizing betting range is underperforming compared to the maximally exploitative strategy, yes. But not by a long stretch, by a very short one, we're talking in the 0.5%s. On the other hand, defending "1-sizing style" vs a 10 sizing betting range will get absolutely demolished. This is just a fact of poker theory, I'm not saying you should play like this. Of course you should try to play in the most profitable way against each villain, but that doesn't change how theory works.
Thankfully the real answer to the problem you describe is simply in the middle. The best way to study sims for practical purpose is to use limited sizings. So no 1 (well maybe on the flop or in some veryyy specific spots) and certainly not 10.
2 flop, 3-4 turn 3-4 river is usually what i recommend.

i'm not recommending 1 size either. Just using this as an argument to point out that even the sim with the most sizings won't give you the optimal answer

 06-09-2021, 12:22 AM #48 dude45 adept   Join Date: Sep 2019 Posts: 848 Re: How does GTO win? Will quantum computers be able to solve poker ?
06-09-2021, 05:00 AM   #49
Dejavudu666
journeyman

Join Date: Mar 2020
Posts: 337
Re: How does GTO win?

Quote:
 Originally Posted by aner0 The only way to exploit the 10 sizing sim in NLHE would be to play more sizings than it accounts for.
It's interesting because infinite (decimal) bet sizings are possible therefore is there a true equilibria?

Sent from my HRY-LX1 using Tapatalk

 06-09-2021, 06:14 AM #50 plexiq veteran   Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Vienna Posts: 2,411 Re: How does GTO win? If there are infinitely many sizings then there's actually not even a guarantee NEs exist at all. In reality we don't have infinitely many sizings though, you can't bet fractions of a cent or fractions of a tournament chip.

 Thread Tools Display Modes Linear Mode

 Posting Rules You may not post new threads You may not post replies You may not post attachments You may not edit your posts BB code is On Smilies are On [IMG] code is On HTML code is Off Forum Rules
 Forum Jump User Control Panel Private Messages Subscriptions Who's Online Search Forums Forums Home Poker News & Discussion     News, Views, and Gossip     Poker Blogs and Goals     Poker Beats, Brags, and Variance     YouTube Podcasts & Twitch Streams     General Poker Discussion Online Poker Sites & Marketplaces     Online Poker Sites         Discussion of Poker Sites         Global Poker         BetOnline.ag     Coaches & Schools         Seeking Coaching         Study Groups         General Coaching & Schools Discussion     Staking         Offering Stakes         Seeking Stakes         Selling Shares - Live         Selling Shares - Online         Staking Rails     Poker Software         General Software Discussion     General Marketplace     Transaction Feedback & Disputes Live Poker     Las Vegas Lifestyle     Venues & Communities     Tournament Events         WPT.com     Home Poker     Casino & Cardroom Poker Poker Strategy     Live No-Limit Hold’em Cash     Online No-Limit Hold’em Cash     No Limit Tournaments         Heads Up SNG and Spin and Gos     Mid-High Stakes MTT     Omaha         Omaha/8     Other Poker Games         Mid-High Stakes Limit         Micro-Small Stakes Limit         Stud     Psychology     Books and Publications     Poker Theory & GTO     Beginners and General Questions 2+2 Communities     Other Other Topics         OOTV     The Lounge: Discussion+Review     BBV4Life         omg omg omg     House of Blogs Sports and Games     Sporting Events         Single-Team Season Threads         Fantasy Sports     Sports Betting     Fantasy Sports         Sporting Events     Wrestling     Golf     Chess and Other Board Games         Backgammon Forum hosted by Bill Robertie.     Video Games         League of Legends         Hearthstone     Puzzles and Other Games Other Topics     Politics and Society     Business, Finance, and Investing     History     Health and Fitness     Travel     Science, Math, and Philosophy     Religion, God, and Theology     Laughs or Links!     Probability     Other Gambling Games     Computer and Technical Help Two Plus Two     About the Forums

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:59 AM.

 Contact Us - Two Plus Two Publishing LLC - Privacy Statement - Top