Hi everyone, i would like to understand some concepts about preflop betsizing and therefore hear as many points of view as possible about it.

Let's assume we are in a 6 max game. A lot of people including myself raise bigger from EP than from LP. Something like 3.5x UTG, 3x MP and CO, 2.5x BTN. If i'm getting this right, it's because we want to:

-Play bigger pots with our value hands from EP because we are dominating their calling range
-Narrow the field of players with a big raise from EP (not really necessary in sh games, but whatever)
-Play with a higher SPR from EP

-Bet less from LP because we play a wider range of hands
-Steal the blinds for cheap with a better risk/reward from LP
-Get away cheaply from 3bets when we are say the BTN
-Play the pot IP with a low SPR

If you have more good reasons please say it.

However, there is something i don't understand.
We clearly know that the more we go left by positions, the more it becomes profitable to play, the BTN being the position showing the best profit.
So, taking this into consideration, don't we want to :

-Bet smaller from EP because we play oop and are often going to b/f or c/f the flop ?
-Induce more 3bets from LP or the blinds so we can often happily 4bet get it in w/ a good % of our opening range ?

-Bet bigger from LP because we often are gonna take down the pot postflop, mostly on the flop, sometimes on the turn, so we want to charge them for entering the pot ? Aren't we happy inflating the size of the pot being IP, make them pay more for seeing the flop and seeing the turn ? We can still pot control if we want to because we are IP.
-Keep them more honest with you. Sure a 4.5x raise from BTN means a lot of dead money in the pot, but i think the blinds are probably not become 3bet happy, being forced to raise 16x w/ junk oop.
-Play bigger pots when we can play properly against their range being IP. We are always said the BTN is so good, that people don't use its advantages enough. Why playing bigger pot when we can play optimally is a bad thing ?


Isn't playing big pots in position better than playing big pots out of position with a better starting range ? I'm just wondering, i'm ofc trolling a bit, but that's because i want to understand this, it seems to me that raising bigger from LP and smaller from EP is better than the contrary.

I make it 4x with all hands from all positions. Against certain types of donks and other odd players I sometimes minraise in mid and late positions.

I am undecided about all the points you mention, I've heard them before, I can't sort it all out in my head.

I do have one thing to point out though. The value we get from being in position only applies if there is still money left to bet. If we get all in preflop position doesn't matter, it's all hot/cold. If there is one effective bet left we might have a little benefit from position, but I'd say not too much. The deeper we are - higher spr - the more we will benefit from position. So while we would like the stakes to magically be 10x higher when we have position, we don't necessarily want this to happen at the cost of a tiny spr.

I always always raise if I'm coming in from EP. I usually raise if I'm entering from late, but not always because this will tend to reduce my positional advantage.

I don't think I ever do it, but now I'm thinking a 4bet shove from EP with AA, AK, and air (suited connectors would be the only air in my range) is probably good play against the right villains.

Some of your points arent exactly correct.

Raising bigger makes smaller SPRs, which is what we want when we are oop, relatively less behind post to lose when the in position caller makes a bigger hand.

Calling ranges are tighter when we raise from up front, so its not correct to say our open ranges dominate their calling ranges. It depends.

Raising smaller means bigger stack to pot ratio, I think you probably are just confused about the term.

Some say we should raise smaller from the EP, because then it costs us less to get away from our hand when we are re-raised since our Ep raise shows enough strength on the basis of position.

Some say we should raise more in the late seats because then we are playing larger pots when we are more certain of having position in the hand, for every hand we play oop we are playing for smaller stakes and every hand we play ip we are playing for larger stakes.

4Card

You are totally right, i inverted the two terms, sorry about that.
I actually meant :
But i can't edit at this point.

I think in terms of range it's correct. The top of their calling range might dominate the worst hands of ours, but our UTG opening range dominates their calling range, i'm talking in general.

Yes but that's the question. How to play bigger pots in LP than in EP on average(if that's what we want to do), while not having the disadvantages of low SPR with a wide range and all.

You really can't against tough opponents. But that's the reason you play a tighter range from early position.

There's a lot of other cool things you can do with bet sizing if you're willing to experiment a little. On the one hand you want a high SPR if you're guaranteed position but on the other hand you don't want to give such a good price where they can defend a wide range profitably even with the positional disadvantage. There's a strong argument for actually raising your bet size on the button as stacks get deeper (although probably not to more than 4x, even very deep).

Also when you're raising first in you can use your betsizing to manipulate the whole table. People used to advocate minraising speculative hands in early position to encourage multiway action. Nowdays it's believed that the price of giving away the strength of your hand is too much. But what if table conditions are such that you don't mind minraising with your monsters too (i.e there's a lot of flatting and squeezing when you minraise, but much less when you make it 4x)? Suddenly you get the best of both worlds: Good SPR for hands that prefer it and a good opportunity to pick up a lot of dead money preflop with your monsters sometimes.

Yes but also, if i understood what you're saying, high SPR in EP with your monsters sometimes...

Yes, it's a tradeoff. But under the right circumstances it's a tradeoff with a positive expectation.

If you raise less amount in LP, you get plenty of chances to flat the 3b ip and then play a big pot where you aren't AI on the flop or possibly turn. You get the chance to play 3 streets and you can take many pots away from your opponent and put him for a decision for all his money while you don't have to.

This is why it's annoying to get punished by decent players when you're isoraising with a wide range pre. Say you raise two limpers to 6 bb. Then you get 3b to 22. You can't 4b w/o being committed and when you call, your opponent can shove his whole range blind if you're calling wide.

If you raise less amount in EP, you'll get a to play a strong range vs a wide range with a lot of implicit value vs your range. The hands you play aren't that great for multiway pots either, so it's very stupid to offer people good odds on a call. Also, opponents ip will be able to utilize all 3 streets pretty cheap and will win more pots.