How to adjust vs over 3-betting - Poker Theory

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How to adjust vs over 3-betting

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04-18-2022 , 09:09 PM

fish & chips

journeyman

Join Date: Feb 2017 Posts: 271

Hey

Are there any resources that show how would a solver adapt vs someone over3betting?
I would assume it will have a much heavier 4bet strategy that can be heavily counter-exploited if the over 3bettor becomes tighter than normal.

How do you guys adjust vs players who over 3bet?

Is there any material covering this or is the only option to buy a super expensive pc start running sims for myself?

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04-18-2022 , 10:25 PM

aner0

Verified Coach NLHE

Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 3,667

RFI tighter, defend wider and 4b wider

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04-18-2022 , 10:57 PM

Brokenstars

Verified Coach NLHE

Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 16,101

everything aner0 stated, rfi tighter might be the biggest adjustment though.

Running sims given an RFI range and the 3bet range is actually pretty simple/low ram and time commitment, if you want something ran could run it for you, but this would be given the RFI and not take into account any card removal effects from the other 4 players.

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04-20-2022 , 01:54 AM

newguyhere

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2016 Posts: 7,153

What's the best way to tighten our RFI?

This is a CO opening range

I assume the first place we'd start is by removing all of the mixed/zero EV opens. Would we remove more? If so, what hands?

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04-20-2022 , 04:06 AM

aner0

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Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 3,667

Depnds on the degree

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04-21-2022 , 04:26 PM

bigburge10

journeyman

Join Date: Sep 2016 Posts: 216

What’s your reasoning for tightening the RFI?

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04-22-2022 , 12:33 AM

Brokenstars

Verified Coach NLHE

Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 16,101

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigburge10

What’s your reasoning for tightening the RFI?

the weakest hands in your range always fold to a 3b and are ~0ev so any increase in 3b frequency from villains will turn those negative.

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04-22-2022 , 09:56 AM

bigburge10

journeyman

Join Date: Sep 2016 Posts: 216

Nice, well said.

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04-23-2022 , 04:31 PM

Jarretman

veteran

Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 2,937

I'm talking out of my ass here but assuming they never adjust, we could widen our 4bet range and call vs 3bet range and then tighten our RFI range to only hands that can continue vs a 3bet (as a 4bet or a call). This would be pretty easy to notice, and quickly, but I imagine it would be the max exploit preflop.

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04-23-2022 , 04:39 PM

#10

tombos21

veteran

Join Date: Sep 2018 Posts: 2,048

In addition to what others have said, focus on hands that block raises. A hand like ATo expects to face a 3bet less often compared to T7s. That becomes more relevant facing aggressive 3bettors.

4bet more, call 3bets more, tighten RFI, open fewer hands that fold to a raise.

You can get an idea of the correct opening range by running an exploitative preflop sim using software like HRC. You don't need a monster computer for this stuff anymore.

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04-23-2022 , 11:34 PM

#11

keuwai

Verified Coach NLHE

Join Date: Aug 2021 Posts: 327

I think the shape of the 3bet range you’re facing is important too. If the extra 3bets are linear in nature (KJs, 88 etc) then you probably want to 4bet more. Whereas against someone who is 3betting lots of junk (K6o, 75s) you want to expand your calling range instead.

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04-24-2022 , 03:34 PM

#12

newguyhere

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Quote:

Originally Posted by keuwai

What about on anonymous sites where we might get enough of a sample during a session to believe they are over 3-betting, but don't actually know what kind of hands they are doing it with?

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04-24-2022 , 04:18 PM

#13

aner0

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Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 3,667

Quote:

Originally Posted by newguyhere

What about on anonymous sites where we might get enough of a sample during a session to believe they are over 3-betting, but don't actually know what kind of hands they are doing it with?

I doubt you can even have any statistically significant idea that they're over 3betting

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04-24-2022 , 06:53 PM

#14

Brokenstars

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Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 16,101

Quote:

Originally Posted by aner0

I doubt you can even have any statistically significant idea that they're over 3betting

This is correct, you'd mostly want to draw that conclusion based off the hand itself rather than the stat which you're only going to have 0-200 hands on someone anyway.

For example, if you see someone has a 20% 3b over 100 hands, but you saw they 3b in MP vs UTG with like K9o, then it's safe to assume they are spewey/wide, but if you've only season reasonable hands its much harder to draw that conclusion.

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04-24-2022 , 08:30 PM

#15

newguyhere

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Makes sense. thanks.

So would you say it's better to just stick closer to solved defense ranges, or maybe a little tighter based on pop. tendencies?

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04-24-2022 , 10:22 PM

#16

Brokenstars

Verified Coach NLHE

Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 16,101

Well it depends on the pop tendencies and the data you have to support them, but generally speaking I would say people over adjust over small samples because they do not understand basic statistics. They put too much emphasis on the stat over a small sample and then make very large deviations that are not warranted over said sample.

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04-24-2022 , 10:27 PM

#17

newguyhere

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Originally Posted by Brokenstars

Sounds like me.

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04-25-2022 , 11:15 AM

#18

endi

journeyman

Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 251

surely 4b shoving freq goes up, no?

though if it matters in practise that would be obvious to villain

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04-26-2022 , 09:07 AM

#19

Jarretman

veteran

Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 2,937

Quote:

Originally Posted by endi

surely 4b shoving freq goes up, no?

though if it matters in practise that would be obvious to villain

bit of a rabbit hole but I think that really depends on his response to your non all in 4bets. In practice, without that information, I'd imagine non all in 4bets perform better than all in (even when oop)

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