Is this a glitch or is QJo really ahead here? - Poker Theory

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Is this a glitch or is QJo really ahead here?

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11-09-2012 , 06:56 PM

Bravo72

stranger

Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 6

Just doesn't seem logical. Someone please explain.

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11-09-2012 , 08:08 PM

nar160

journeyman

Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 367

AT vs QJ heads up is around 58/42. Some of that advantage is AT winning with A high on some boards. When you throw 44 in the mix, it takes away the A high value of AT.

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11-09-2012 , 08:31 PM

DarkMagus

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 8,391

With the pair thrown in, the AT and QJ both have to hit to win, which as nar160 said removes the value of ace-high. The AT also loses a small amount of value from its T, since it would give the QJ a 3-straight with several ways (AK, K9, or 89) to hit in the remaining 4 board cards. I'm guessing this is where most of the difference comes from.

Also, the QJ will win with four diamonds or clubs, whereas the AT can only hit spades.

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11-10-2012 , 02:39 AM

Aesah

Coach NLHE/PLO

Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 6,578

Quote:

Originally Posted by nar160

AT vs QJ heads up is around 58/42. Some of that advantage is AT winning with A high on some boards. When you throw 44 in the mix, it takes away the A high value of AT.

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11-10-2012 , 08:21 AM

Vanhaomena

old hand

Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 1,939

If this feels unintuitive to you (which is understandable), try doing the same with multiway Omaha hands. You can have the ugliest piece of crap hand being the dominant favourite, or the currently highest ranked hand drawing stone dead 4-ways.

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11-11-2012 , 02:54 PM

ruthefordthebrave

centurion

Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 154

What I suggest is that you charge your phone😜

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11-12-2012 , 04:34 PM

Acesflow11

adept

Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 908

you obv do lose value with A high,but not on double paired boards like 55772 for example.... not good in math but would be cool too see how its explained in math for QJ to be ahead

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11-12-2012 , 05:23 PM

Sharker_on_tilt

enthusiast

Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acesflow11

you obv do lose value with A high,but not on double paired boards like 55772 for example.... not good in math but would be cool too see how its explained in math for QJ to be ahead

double-pair or quads board are really rare (around 20-1) so its not so much value there.

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11-17-2012 , 11:46 AM

Enfuego

newbie

Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acesflow11

you obv do lose value with A high,but not on double paired boards like 55772 for example.... not good in math but would be cool too see how its explained in math for QJ to be ahead

You're obviously more likely to see a board where A high is good vs a dbl paired board. That and the 4 flush outs for Qj create the equity.

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11-17-2012 , 08:33 PM

#10

2013

centurion

Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 125

Quote:

Originally Posted by nar160

AT vs QJ heads up is around 58/42. Some of that advantage is AT winning with A high on some boards. When you throw 44 in the mix, it takes away the A high value of AT.

I think in this example, QJ is slightly ahead preflop because both need to hit a pair to win, but QJ has the small added advantage of catching more straights than AT, as well as outdrawing AT when a T falls. If you change AT to AK, AK will be slightly ahead.

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12-16-2012 , 11:47 PM

#11

Pot_N_Half

enthusiast

Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 89

ATo, JTs, 55, 87s is basically a 4-way tie even though ATo dominates JTs ;-)

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12-17-2012 , 12:19 AM

#12

yaqh

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 5,745

i was looking for an app like that recently -- what is it?

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12-17-2012 , 01:36 AM

#13

LazyAce

veteran

Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 2,342

Quote:

Originally Posted by yaqh

i was looking for an app like that recently -- what is it?

I don't know which one he is using there but there are a couple of poker stove like apps in the android market that are free and seem to work.

OP's battery looks like it is gonna die soon. Better plug it in.

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12-17-2012 , 10:42 AM

#14

BlackLoter

journeyman

Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 343

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2013

The main reason for AK being so much better than AT there, is the fact when a T drops a Q or a J may also drop and they would give victory to QJ, whereas with AK and a K on the board that doesn't happen. T being a better straight card than K for QJ is very marginal.

In fact, if you swap QJ with 98 you still get about same straight potential and help from a T (actually 98 has better straight potential overall) but AT becomes the best hand because a T will dominate any single pair 98 closes.

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12-17-2012 , 10:44 AM

#15

yaqh

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 5,745

Quote:

Originally Posted by LazyAce

sorry to derail, but anything for iphone? :/

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12-17-2012 , 10:51 AM

#16

RustyBrooks

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 24,640

I just use pro poker tools website for most things.

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