Open Side Menu Go to the Top
Register
AKo OOP shove 100bb with 3bet AKo OOP shove 100bb with 3bet

08-05-2021 , 02:52 AM
Recently I check some preflop GTO range, I found sometimes AK and other hands will shove OOP vs a 3bet, for example:
6max 100bb

UTG open 2.5
HJ raise 7.5
fold to UTG
UTG will call and re-riase some hands,not hard to understand, but when it goes to some hands:

AA: 50% 4bet, 50% shove
KK: 50% 4bet, 50% shove
AKs: 50% 4bet, 50% shove
AKo: 20% 4bet, 80% shove
A5s: 100% shove
A4s: 90% shove
....

I know this is kind of GTO that mix bluff and value range, villain is hard to exploit us, but I barely see people shove vs a 3bet.

Is it reasonable follow this kind of preflop range in our games?
AKo OOP shove 100bb with 3bet Quote
08-06-2021 , 07:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiltplay
Recently I check some preflop GTO range, I found sometimes AK and other hands will shove OOP vs a 3bet, for example:
6max 100bb

UTG open 2.5
HJ raise 7.5
fold to UTG
UTG will call and re-riase some hands,not hard to understand, but when it goes to some hands:

AA: 50% 4bet, 50% shove
KK: 50% 4bet, 50% shove
AKs: 50% 4bet, 50% shove
AKo: 20% 4bet, 80% shove
A5s: 100% shove
A4s: 90% shove
....

I know this is kind of GTO that mix bluff and value range, villain is hard to exploit us, but I barely see people shove vs a 3bet.

Is it reasonable follow this kind of preflop range in our games?
What ranges are you using ? Those numbers look strange to me
AKo OOP shove 100bb with 3bet Quote
08-06-2021 , 10:00 AM
the ranges you have posted are not GTO, they look pretty bad. Shoving AKo is fine i guess but the other stuff is torch
AKo OOP shove 100bb with 3bet Quote
08-09-2021 , 02:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dude45
What ranges are you using ? Those numbers look strange to me
GTO wizard Nl50 complex. I can't post image due to network limits.

https://gtowizard.com/login
AKo OOP shove 100bb with 3bet Quote
08-09-2021 , 03:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by aner0
the ranges you have posted are not GTO, they look pretty bad. Shoving AKo is fine i guess but the other stuff is torch

I didn't listed all the range of shove or 4bet, but this is based on GTOwizard nl50 complex. I can't post image here due to network issue.


https://gtowizard.com/login
AKo OOP shove 100bb with 3bet Quote
08-09-2021 , 05:46 AM
I have a hard time believing AA is ever supposed to just 4bet shove, but then again I don't play in these super high rake environments so it might be a correct play for 50NL. Generally as the 3bet positions get tighter you will see solvers 4bet shove stronger and stronger hands, because even hands as strong as KK don't really have that nutted of an equity advantage in these tight position couples. AKo is a hand that benefits immensely from this play for obvious reasons.

But because all of these are mixed actions in practice you should look at how your opponents are deviating relative to the solver solutions and pick the pure strategy. For example it's almost certain that shoving A5s or A4s UTG vs HJ is a losing play in basically any 50NL pool.
AKo OOP shove 100bb with 3bet Quote
08-09-2021 , 11:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by getmeoffcompletely
I have a hard time believing AA is ever supposed to just 4bet shove, but then again I don't play in these super high rake environments so it might be a correct play for 50NL. Generally as the 3bet positions get tighter you will see solvers 4bet shove stronger and stronger hands, because even hands as strong as KK don't really have that nutted of an equity advantage in these tight position couples. AKo is a hand that benefits immensely from this play for obvious reasons.

But because all of these are mixed actions in practice you should look at how your opponents are deviating relative to the solver solutions and pick the pure strategy. For example it's almost certain that shoving A5s or A4s UTG vs HJ is a losing play in basically any 50NL pool.
Yeah, In real games I will use A5s 4bet sometimes but never shove vs a 4bet. (I see people shove A5s though)
I think if V will use a very wide 4bet range (which is not happening in NL50) A5s shove can be a +EV action.
In another hand, if V only call shove with a strong range, we will lose when they call, get EV from they fold. In order to gain the max EV, we must mix some bluff hands in our shove range(AKs, QQ+), or V will simply exploit fold.

Or in NL50 pool nobody cares about balance, and there is no such exploit fold. GTO guarantee you have 0 EV, but 5bet shove only with value hand is more exploit and can get more value compare to a GTO range, Idk.
AKo OOP shove 100bb with 3bet Quote
08-10-2021 , 12:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiltplay
GTO wizard Nl50 complex. I can't post image due to network limits.

...UTG open 2.5
HJ raise 7.5
fold to UTG
UTG will call and re-riase some hands,not hard to understand, but when it goes to some hands:

AA: 50% 4bet, 50% shove
KK: 50% 4bet, 50% shove
AKs: 50% 4bet, 50% shove
AKo: 20% 4bet, 80% shove
A5s: 100% shove
A4s: 90% shove...
You may have confused the situation, but those are not the ranges in what you've described. There is a 4b shoving range, but it exists exclusively of some QQ/KK/AKo





Anyone can go view the range for free here:

https://gtowizard.com/study/solution...&historySpot=6
AKo OOP shove 100bb with 3bet Quote
08-12-2021 , 07:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tombos21
You may have confused the situation, but those are not the ranges in what you've described. There is a 4b shoving range, but it exists exclusively of some QQ/KK/AKo





Anyone can go view the range for free here:

https://gtowizard.com/study/solution...&historySpot=6
You are correct, I double-check the website it shows just as you posted.
Due to some network issue, I cannot log in GTOWizard at any time but take a screenshot and save it to OneNote. I have saved these pics months ago, not sure if I choose the wrong display setting back then (full height). I guess I need to refresh all of the pics
Here is the pic I use:
AKo OOP shove 100bb with 3bet Quote

      
m