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3BP OOP SB v BTN -- Why are we checking a KsJsTh flop at such a high frequency? 3BP OOP SB v BTN -- Why are we checking a KsJsTh flop at such a high frequency?
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05-04-2024 , 04:33 PM
#1
Kler
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See the screeshot below for details of the spot. I'm wondering why we do so much checking on the flop when it looks like we have a pretty significant range advantage, lots of equity, and no nut disadvantage.

3BP OOP SB v BTN -- Why are we checking a KsJsTh flop at such a high frequency? Quote
05-05-2024 , 10:56 PM
#2
Kler
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Compared, for example, with a KJ9ss flop, solver is rangebetting, we have somewhat better EQR, but otherwise I can't see how the situation is all that different.

3BP OOP SB v BTN -- Why are we checking a KsJsTh flop at such a high frequency? Quote
05-11-2024 , 09:51 PM
#3
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Domination of straights probably. While we both have similar # of AQ, they're much more concentrated relatively in BU range

So our nut/set EV is getting minced throughout the whole tree (whereas KJ9 requires more cards). And theoretical gto BU can now take more adv of our vulnerable range bet by raising twice as much.
3BP OOP SB v BTN -- Why are we checking a KsJsTh flop at such a high frequency? Quote
05-13-2024 , 11:31 AM
#4
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No you're misinterpreting the sim.

We want to bet really small for range at 100bs, at 150bb's the SPR will change so you are a little more passive but still betting a lot. If you allow a smaller sizing the frequency will go way up.

Same thing happens on Ace high boards when you only allow B33. You need to allow for B12/B20.
3BP OOP SB v BTN -- Why are we checking a KsJsTh flop at such a high frequency? Quote
05-13-2024 , 02:36 PM
#5
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huh... interesting

Is b12 the sweet spot for current sims? I seem to remember the Zenith guy said 1bb bets are sometimes gto
3BP OOP SB v BTN -- Why are we checking a KsJsTh flop at such a high frequency? Quote
05-13-2024 , 07:54 PM
#6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DooDooPoker
No you're misinterpreting the sim.

We want to bet really small for range at 100bs, at 150bb's the SPR will change so you are a little more passive but still betting a lot. If you allow a smaller sizing the frequency will go way up.

Same thing happens on Ace high boards when you only allow B33. You need to allow for B12/B20.
That isn't what the sim says. It's only betting at a 12.5% frequency.
3BP OOP SB v BTN -- Why are we checking a KsJsTh flop at such a high frequency? Quote
05-13-2024 , 08:21 PM
#7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AskZandar
That isn't what the sim says. It's only betting at a 12.5% frequency.
I think you mean 13.5% frequency but yeah that doesn't mean you only bet 13.5% frequency.

If you give the solver a smaller bet sizing option it will bet at a much higher frequency. This is just solver gymnastics. Obviously you don't basically range check on a K high board as 3BP OOP PFR.
3BP OOP SB v BTN -- Why are we checking a KsJsTh flop at such a high frequency? Quote
05-13-2024 , 08:31 PM
#8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DooDooPoker
I think you mean 13.5% frequency but yeah that doesn't mean you only bet 13.5% frequency.

If you give the solver a smaller bet sizing option it will bet at a much higher frequency. This is just solver gymnastics. Obviously you don't basically range check on a K high board as 3BP OOP PFR.
He's asking why there are so many checks when there is such a big range an EQ advantage, not how to manipulate the bet size to fit into a range bet strategy.
3BP OOP SB v BTN -- Why are we checking a KsJsTh flop at such a high frequency? Quote
05-13-2024 , 08:42 PM
#9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AskZandar
He's asking why there are so many checks when there is such a big range an EQ advantage, not how to manipulate the bet size to fit into a range bet strategy.
Yeah so I'm saying the sim is incomplete, that's why SB is checking so much.

We aren't manipulating the bet size, GTO is always range betting small. This is just a bad sim.
3BP OOP SB v BTN -- Why are we checking a KsJsTh flop at such a high frequency? Quote
05-13-2024 , 09:00 PM
#10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceres
huh... interesting

Is b12 the sweet spot for current sims? I seem to remember the Zenith guy said 1bb bets are sometimes gto
Metagame used a lot of B12/B25 sizing's. You will see this a lot on Ace high board sims.

So for example, if I take this spot SB3BETvsBU on A72r and I run a Simple sim. It will check more often because it only uses B33.



But then I run a General sim which uses B20 it will basically range bet.



It's important to use proper sizing's for the spot or sims like OP's will come up that make no sense.
3BP OOP SB v BTN -- Why are we checking a KsJsTh flop at such a high frequency? Quote
05-13-2024 , 09:04 PM
#11
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Seems like just a spot rake impacts the ranges a lot. If you do 100bb simplified (not simple) you can switch between 50/500nl and there's the same difference whether you make OOP or IP simplified. Interestingly OOP never goes for a XR in either

There are a lot of spots solver will take a certain line just because villain is forced to have a bad strategy, whether from nodelocking or not giving villain the choice to go thin enough/exert enough pressure which is why you need to use good sims as a starting point

This is a good example of why people say not to use the NL50 sims even if it's more accurate to the games you're playing in
3BP OOP SB v BTN -- Why are we checking a KsJsTh flop at such a high frequency? Quote
05-13-2024 , 10:39 PM
#12
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Makes sense, but there are full sims for 50nl i think? I can make it b20 using General/GTO3b at least



Non trivial chance i've missed the point
3BP OOP SB v BTN -- Why are we checking a KsJsTh flop at such a high frequency? Quote
05-14-2024 , 12:22 AM
#13
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Yep you're right

I don't think 21 vs 20% is what's causing the difference

IP is only allowed to stab 25% pot in this sim, which is a bad size (solver likes 50/75)
3BP OOP SB v BTN -- Why are we checking a KsJsTh flop at such a high frequency? Quote
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