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25NLz hand - How do I simplify this GTO flop strategy to a useable cbet range? 25NLz hand - How do I simplify this GTO flop strategy to a useable cbet range?

01-14-2022 , 01:17 PM
GG Poker - $0.25 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 208.76 BB
SB: 104.56 BB
BB: 139.24 BB
UTG: 100.88 BB
MP: 135.6 BB
Hero (CO): 103.2 BB

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has K T

fold, fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, fold, fold, BB calls 2 BB

Flop: (6.4 BB, 2 players) 5 K 6
BB checks, Hero bets 2.12 BB, BB calls 2.12 BB

Turn: (10.64 BB, 2 players) 7
BB checks, Hero checks

River: (10.64 BB, 2 players) 6
BB bets 8 BB, fold

BB wins 10.12 BB

----

Ran my sim with these ranges:
OOP: 88-22,A9s-A6s,A3s-A2s,KJs-K2s,QJs-Q9s,JTs-J9s,T9s,98s,87s-86s,76s-75s,65s-64s,54s-53s,43s,AJo-ATo,KJo-KTo,QJo-QTo,JTo
IP: AA-22,AKs-A2s,KQs-K2s,QJs-Q7s,JTs-J8s,T9s-T8s,98s-97s,87s,76s,AKo-A9o,KQo-KTo,QJo-QTo,JTo

Set flop, turn and river allowed sizes to 33,66,150
It preferred 33 on the flop and 66 on the turn, so I re-ran the sim with only those sizes

Then I got this flop strategy:



How do I turn this monster into a useable range?
Preferably a range that does everything at a 100% frequency with each hand.
I really haven't gotten into mixed frequencies so far, it seems to get extremely complicated very fast.
01-14-2022 , 03:10 PM
If a hand is mixed, it doesn't matter how you play it in GTO, so just do what you think is most profitable.

Check flop, never fold river, I'd say. People overbluff there so much and you are pretty much range folding apparently.

You're wasting so much energy on some flop 0EV spots, while making a river fold that is burning like 200bb/100 in theory. Seems weird to me.
01-14-2022 , 03:12 PM
Checking flop is certainly a viable option at some frequency.. I'd probably block bet the turn and check back river
01-14-2022 , 03:40 PM
First off just call it off, folding river is a huge punt.

Secondly, playing correct frequencies is only useful when both you and your opponent are strong players. If you're a newbie playing newbies you're better off playing whatever line you think is best vs population.

But yeah that output you're showing is basically the simplest form of a solver strategy you're going to see.

By the way, you can't just remove turn sizings and rerun the sim just because they're not used on this turn, other sizings are used on other turns

Last edited by aner0; 01-14-2022 at 03:59 PM.
01-14-2022 , 05:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZKesic 25NLz hand - How do I simplify this GTO flop strategy to a useable cbet range?
If a hand is mixed, it doesn't matter how you play it in GTO, so just do what you think is most profitable.
That's assuming my opponent won't adjust though.
And it's true, my opponent won't, but it seems like a bad habit to build?

I mostly posted the hand to check the river fold, I actually thought it was a good fold before posting the hand.
But then some ppl kept saying I should check flop mostly and that seemed weird and then I got hung up in my sim

Quote:
Originally Posted by aner0 25NLz hand - How do I simplify this GTO flop strategy to a useable cbet range?
By the way, you can't just remove turn sizings and rerun the sim just because they're not used on this turn, other sizings are used on other turns
Oh, very interesting!
I can do it for the flop though?
01-14-2022 , 06:02 PM
Betting flop is completely fine, there's very little good advice on this forum when it comes to hand review

Also, the bad habit is not to think about your hand and what line makes the most logical sense, the bad habit is to braindead RNG whatever frequency because solver says so

Last edited by aner0; 01-14-2022 at 06:26 PM.
01-14-2022 , 06:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeodan 25NLz hand - How do I simplify this GTO flop strategy to a useable cbet range?
That's assuming my opponent won't adjust though.
And it's true, my opponent won't, but it seems like a bad habit to build?
It's exactly how you should be playing poker. You should be exploiting your opponents, not the other way around.

Imagine if a player keeps exploiting you as much as he can, while you're the whole time just focusing on playing as "balanced" as you can. Who do you think is winning here? He's focusing on taking as much money as he can from you, while you're focusing on losing as little as possible.
01-14-2022 , 07:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by aner0 25NLz hand - How do I simplify this GTO flop strategy to a useable cbet range?
If you're a newbie playing newbies
OP is actually a coach wtf.
01-14-2022 , 09:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZKesic 25NLz hand - How do I simplify this GTO flop strategy to a useable cbet range?
It's exactly how you should be playing poker. You should be exploiting your opponents, not the other way around.

Imagine if a player keeps exploiting you as much as he can, while you're the whole time just focusing on playing as "balanced" as you can. Who do you think is winning here? He's focusing on taking as much money as he can from you, while you're focusing on losing as little as possible.
Exactly, try winning a Street Fighter match without ever throwing a punch
01-14-2022 , 10:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by aner0 25NLz hand - How do I simplify this GTO flop strategy to a useable cbet range?
Exactly, try winning a Street Fighter match without ever throwing a punch
Chun Li, baby.
01-14-2022 , 10:47 PM
The trick to understanding these mixed strategies is to pay attention to the thresholds / lines of indifference.

Which hands are pure checks? Which hands are pure bets? Which hands are indifferent to folding vs this bet? What's the weakest hand that can raise for value?

These lines sculpt your range and give you a better idea how to adapt against different strategies.
01-15-2022 , 06:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZKesic 25NLz hand - How do I simplify this GTO flop strategy to a useable cbet range?
If a hand is mixed, it doesn't matter how you play it in GTO, so just do what you think is most profitable.

Check flop, never fold river, I'd say. People overbluff there so much and you are pretty much range folding apparently.

You're wasting so much energy on some flop 0EV spots, while making a river fold that is burning like 200bb/100 in theory. Seems weird to me.
What if I told you it was not possible to overbluff as bb in this river spot? Unless you mean mixing sizes and putting not enough value into one size, or betting with too many hands that don't "need" to bluff as they are very +EV checks. FWIW KT just can't fold river cause oop is vbetting worse
01-15-2022 , 07:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarretman 25NLz hand - How do I simplify this GTO flop strategy to a useable cbet range?
What if I told you it was not possible to overbluff as bb in this river spot? Unless you mean mixing sizes and putting not enough value into one size, or betting with too many hands that don't "need" to bluff as they are very +EV checks. FWIW KT just can't fold river cause oop is vbetting worse
You could also not valuebet often enough
01-16-2022 , 12:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZKesic 25NLz hand - How do I simplify this GTO flop strategy to a useable cbet range?
Check flop, never fold river, I'd say. People overbluff there so much and you are pretty much range folding apparently.
Maybe thatís true in general, but this runout is so good for BB that he gets to bluff all hands without sdv. I wouldnít be surprised if QJ high gets to bluff river sometimes, and once that happens itís quite hard for BB to be overbluffing.

KT is a call obviously (we beat value), but if I had something like QQ I would snap fold in practice.

On a related note, I like bet folding KT on this type of bad turn, because itís difficult for BB to make mistakes if you check. Instead if you bet, itís very likely that a weak regular would raise a range thatís too value heavy, allowing you to get away from better hands without getting bluffed off the best hand too often.
01-16-2022 , 01:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by keuwai 25NLz hand - How do I simplify this GTO flop strategy to a useable cbet range?
Maybe thatís true in general, but this runout is so good for BB that he gets to bluff all hands without sdv. I wouldnít be surprised if QJ high gets to bluff river sometimes, and once that happens itís quite hard for BB to be overbluffing.

KT is a call obviously (we beat value), but if I had something like QQ I would snap fold in practice.

On a related note, I like bet folding KT on this type of bad turn, because itís difficult for BB to make mistakes if you check. Instead if you bet, itís very likely that a weak regular would raise a range thatís too value heavy, allowing you to get away from better hands without getting bluffed off the best hand too often.
beast tip
01-16-2022 , 06:26 AM
I've made a few calls I would otherwise fold in similar spots yesterday and was surprised people were bluffing a ton, thanks for the good advice!
Yesterday , 04:42 AM
There is no point in simplifying (isn't it already simplified enough?) or trying to emulate that strategy because it is not an accurate representation of the real game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeodan 25NLz hand - How do I simplify this GTO flop strategy to a useable cbet range?
It preferred 33 on the flop and 66 on the turn, so I re-ran the sim with only those sizes
That's not how any of this works.

      
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