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Weird position Weird position

06-29-2009 , 08:46 AM
r1b2rk1/pppp1ppp/2n5/4P1q1/4n3/6P1/PPPPB2P/RNBQR1K1 w - - 0 10



White to move. I want to take my pawn to d3, but every time I replay this scenario I just get into a TON of headaches from the black queen.

Can anyone find a line out of here that realises this advantage?
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06-29-2009 , 09:03 AM
I haven't slept all night, but it looks like d2-d3 just wins a piece for absolutely no compensation. Game over. What are you afraid of?
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06-29-2009 , 09:15 AM
I played that and got in a ton of trouble because black can move his queen around stealing pieces/position while putting the king in check because he is so exposed. I ran this a couple of times and the computer always ends up winning as black too.

Try playing it out and you'll see white doesn't have anywhere near as much of an advantage as the point count suggests.
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06-29-2009 , 10:01 AM
you could be more specific, give an example of how you lost a game from here, you are up a piece and he really doesn't have much compensation because he is not well developed.

for example suppose he grabs 2 pawns for the piece (if he doesn't do this idk how you can think the White king is exposed): 1. d3 Qxe5 2. de Qxe4 3. Nc3, now where does he move the queen? Pretty much anywhere he goes you can develop another piece with tempo: Qe5 Bf4, Qg6 Bd3, Qe7 Nd5, Qe6 Nd5!? If you are losing from here it's because you are making multiple mistakes, not because you are failing to walk some difficult tightrope to victory.
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06-29-2009 , 10:33 AM
Okay, I've identified the flaw in my understanding of this position. After the natural progression of

10. d3! Qxe5 11. dxe4 Qc5+



At the time I didn't know how to evaluate my options for moving my king appropriately. Both Kg2 and Kh1 allow a similar lines, whilst 12. Kf1 d5 threatens mate from 13... Bh3, and loses a tempo when the king must move to Kg2. You can't use 12. Be3 to block check because it just sacs the bishop.

12. Kg2 d6 13. Nc3 Be6 14. Nd5 Bxd5 15. exd5 Nd4 16. c4 leaves white with a strong advantage both positionally and materially. The same line, but with 12. Kh1, seems to be more or less the same. Is there a natural disadvantage to pushing your king into the corner like this when black loses his white bishop? There is an alternative line of 12. Kh1 d6 13. Nc3 Be6 14. Bf4 Re8f8, but I don't understand why this would be considered superior to moving 14. Nd5 as this seems to allow black a strong presence along the e file.
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06-29-2009 , 10:40 AM
I'd feel the king is slightly better placed on g2. It might be useful to cover h3, f2 or f3, and you are closer to the centre in any endgame, and Black really doesn't have any good ways to attack your king so it isn't exposed.

I can't imagine there's much difference though, the overriding consideration in this position is that you are a piece up.
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06-29-2009 , 02:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jd_poker
Okay, I've identified the flaw in my understanding of this position. After the natural progression of

10. d3! Qxe5 11. dxe4 Qc5+



At the time I didn't know how to evaluate my options for moving my king appropriately. Both Kg2 and Kh1 allow a similar lines, whilst 12. Kf1 d5 threatens mate from 13... Bh3, and loses a tempo when the king must move to Kg2. You can't use 12. Be3 to block check because it just sacs the bishop.

12. Kg2 d6 13. Nc3 Be6 14. Nd5 Bxd5 15. exd5 Nd4 16. c4 leaves white with a strong advantage both positionally and materially. The same line, but with 12. Kh1, seems to be more or less the same. Is there a natural disadvantage to pushing your king into the corner like this when black loses his white bishop? There is an alternative line of 12. Kh1 d6 13. Nc3 Be6 14. Bf4 Re8f8, but I don't understand why this would be considered superior to moving 14. Nd5 as this seems to allow black a strong presence along the e file.
I like 12. Kg2 as well for another reason: in your line, instead of 16. c4, I'd probably simplify at the expense of a pawn (yeah, "bots" really hate that!) with 16. Be3 which forces 16...Qxd5+ 17. Bf3 Qxf3+ 18. Qxf3 Nxf3 19. Kxf3 +- ( with Black having virtually zero counterplay) . I'd be very happy to get the last position anytime with White! [ GMs would win this position almost 100% of the time and lesser mortals such as IMs at least 95% of the time! ]
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06-29-2009 , 04:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigpooch
I like 12. Kg2 as well for another reason: in your line, instead of 16. c4, I'd probably simplify at the expense of a pawn (yeah, "bots" really hate that!) with 16. Be3 which forces 16...Qxd5+ 17. Bf3 Qxf3+ 18. Qxf3 Nxf3 19. Kxf3 +- ( with Black having virtually zero counterplay) . I'd be very happy to get the last position anytime with White! [ GMs would win this position almost 100% of the time and lesser mortals such as IMs at least 95% of the time! ]
That is probably far far better advice than any engine could ever give. I like the idea; once you have enough of an edge just swap pieces off until you have an endgame with two pieces (or more) vs. one (or none) and neutral pawn structures, then just take them apart.
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07-02-2009 , 11:45 AM
I'd prefer a setup with Kh1 with the goal of getting your light bishop onto g2 cleaning up your light square weaknesses and you can then later play e5 and have a very nice light bishop as well.
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07-03-2009 , 04:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dire
I'd prefer a setup with Kh1 with the goal of getting your light bishop onto g2 cleaning up your light square weaknesses and you can then later play e5 and have a very nice light bishop as well.
That sounds good, but I don't have a d or an f pawn, it will take at least two (probably otherwise useless) moves to get my bishop to where I want it. It doesn't look like it will be hard for black to move a minor piece to attack e5 either. When he does, he will then have the e5 square covered with at least a pawn (from d6 or f6) and another minor piece, whereas I'm likely to be protecting that pawn with only my rook along with another vulnerable minor piece at best.
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07-03-2009 , 09:51 AM
Defense should be the last thing on your mind.

Coordinate your pieces and attack him. You're up a piece. All other things being equal, if you can effectively attack him then he will be unable to defend. If giving away a pawn would significantly increase the scope and effectiveness of your pieces then don't think twice about it.
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