[I first wanted to post this in the LC thread, but then I thought it's probably a good enough topic to open a new thread.]

I recently have started to work on my chess again after a half year break; among other things I am working on my opening repertoire.

On 1.c4 I play 1..c6. I am fine with a Slav or some White system without d4, but I have trouble deciding on a line after 2.e4. I realise that 2..d5 is probably Black's strongest answer. Though I wouldn't mind if White grabs the pawn (e.g. 3.cd cd 4.exd5 Nf6 5.Bb5+ Nbd7 6.Nc3 g6...), I would like to avoid the main line Panov that White can always transpose to after 2..d5. It's just so much theory, I'd prefer a sound system that I can play without learning a line against the Panov.

Basically I see two alternatives: 2..e5 and 2..e6.

After 2..e6 and 3..d5, White has several options. He can exchange twice on d5 and play a middlegame with some initiative, or he can play 3.d4 and 4.e5, or even the Marshall gambit after 3.d4 and 4.Nc3.

After 2..e5, the game will probably transpose to an Old Indian (e.g. 3.Nf3 d6 4.d4 Nd7 5.Nc3 Ngf6...). At a first glance, this looks okay to me. Maybe Black's position is a bit passive, but at least we can play chess.

So is this the way to go? Does anyone have experience with the Old Indian? Or should I just play 2..d5 and work my way through the Panov? Fwiw I am rated around 2000 Elo, so my goal is mainly to reach a playable middlegame position, and not necessarily to play the objectively best moves in the fight for an opening advantage.

Personally I like the Old Indian, and 2...e5 would be my thought in the position. But you are a better player than I, so I will provide you with others' thoughts on it:

It was discussed (sort of) here before: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/14...efence-651725/

Also, on chessgames.com, IM L. Day said (http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chess...co=A53&kpage=1 ): "It is much more solid than a KID for 3 reasons:
(a)White cannot open a file against the King by h4-h5xg6, nor attack with Be3, Qd2, Bh6 etc;
(b)White's 'extra' tempi mean he plays 0-0, foregoing long castling;
(c) If White advances d4-d5 the Be7 is ideally placed to defend the b4, c4-c5, standard pawn storm on the Queenside.

Middlegame positions often resemble the Breyer Variation of the Ruy lopez where Black also 'loses' two tempi (nb8-c6-b8)."

Finally, I was just starting to play through Bronstein's Old Indian games, as he played it a lot and did quite well: http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chess...5&eco=&result=

i would recommend playing

1. c4 Nf6
2. Nc3 c6

if you want to try to steer into a slav/semi-slav type position just bc i'm a bit of a move-order nit. obviously if white then plays 3. e4 you have a little bit more flexibility with omitting ...e5 for the time being. i usually play it anyway and go into an old indian type position like ganstaman said. also, if someone plays a botvinnik-type move next (d3, g3, Nge2) you can play ...d5 instantly where white's pretty much wasted a tempo.

I would recommend 1. .. e5 with Bb4 type setups depending on the exact move order. Stuff like

1. c4 e5
2. Nc3 Nc6
3. Nf3 Nf6
4. g3 Bb4
5. Nd5 e4
6. Nh4 O-O
7. Bg2 Re8

Its an active position with lots of potential. Black gets space, potential to take over the initiative and easy development. You can't ask for much more.

Do you play the Philidor's against 1.e4?

One thing to keep in mind is having a repertoire that has common themes & ideas .. makes study much easier & also makes it less problematic if you find yourself in a variation you don't know.

Yes, it would be great to play something different against every individual opening, but its far too confusing & makes it difficult ot understand the nuances of each opening in detail.

Having said that, the Old Indian is one solution to the 'problem', but does it fit with your other responses as black?

That move makes this hardly relevant to this thread.

[Event "VI World Blitz"]
[Site "Moscow RUS"]
[Date "2010.11.18"]
[Round "30"]
[White "Andreikin, Dmitry"]
[Black "Aronian, Levon"]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteTitle "GM"]
[BlackTitle "GM"]
[WhiteElo "2683"]
[BlackElo "2801"]
[ECO "A16"]
[Opening "English opening"]
[WhiteFideId "4158814"]
[BlackFideId "13300474"]
[EventDate "2010.11.16"]

1. c4 Nf6 2. Nc3 c6 3. e4 d5 4. e5 Ne4 5. Nf3 Bf5 6. cxd5 cxd5 7. Qb3 Nc5 8.
Qxd5 Nbd7 9. Bb5 e6 10. Bxd7+ Nxd7 11. Qxb7 Rb8 12. Qa6 Rb6 13. Qa4 Bd3 14. Qd4
Nc5 15. Qxd8+ Kxd8 16. b3 Ba6 17. d4 Nd3+ 18. Kd2 Nxf2 19. Re1 Bb4 20. a3 Bxc3+
21. Kxc3 Kd7 22. Be3 Rc8+ 23. Kd2 Ne4+ 24. Kd1 Rxb3 25. Rc1 Rd3+ 0-1

observed this earlier this week

This move order allows White some additional options after 1.c4 Nf6 2.d4 c6, for example 3.Bf4, trying to play a Slav with the Bishop outside the pawn chain.

and then you play ...d5 and what's the problem?

There's no "problem", it's just another option for White to avoid the main lines that he doesn't have against the 1...c6 move order.

1. c4 c6
2. d4 d5
3. Nf3 Nf6
4. Bf4

inferior systems are inferior? if our opponent wants to play a poor system against us, i'd say let him.

That line is considered to be inferior because of 4...dxc4, but in your move order there is 1.c4 c6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Bf4 d5 4.e3. I don't know how good it is for White, but it's at least an option that he doesn't have against the usual move order.

so what is the difference between this move order and switching blacks first two moves? he plays d4 on move two and Bf4 on move 3 either way.

the point is that 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Bf4 is not very good because of dxc4 and b5, Black holds on to the extra pawn and the Bishop is not that well placed on f4.

But with the other move order, White manages to play e3 before Black can take on c4, so he can recapture with the Bishop.

In answer to the OP: it seems that if you normally play the slav, you might not be too comfortable in the positions that arise from the old indian. It's quite a different type of game, with different ideas. It's certainly a playable opening though. But you might be better off just learning a line against the Panov.. I don't know much about this opening, so I couldn't help you there.

Another idea, if you play the semi-slav, is to start with 1...e6, then 2.e4 is not a problem.. but it won't work if you want to get into a regular slav defense.

but if we play
1. c4 c6
2. d4 Nf6

then we're just defeating the purpose of playing ...c6. therefore

1. c4 Nf6
2. d4 c6 (or e6 or g6)
3. Bf4 d5
4. e3 Qb6

shows the defect of developing the bishop

5. Qb3 Na6

and black is fine

also there is no problem with playing 2. ...e6 if we're going for a semi-slav bc most of the lines from the orthodox defense can transpose with no problem. it's only an issue if you specifically want a slav and not a semi-slav. and grunfelds are always fun if you want to play ...g6

so 3. Bf4 is actually just kinda silly

Old Indian is probably too passive.

At least try to find a line that appeases you in the Panov.

Also: What's wrong with just 1.. Nf6 and 2.. c6 ?

I think White still has some chances for an advantage after 4...Qb6 5.Qb3, and 5.Qc2 and 5.Qc1 are also playable - even 5.Qd2 Ne4 6.Qc1 might be good since it's not clear that the knight advance helps Black. In general, White's chances of an advantage aren't any worse here than in the main lines of the Slav.

I'm not claiming that this is crushing for White, or that 1...Nf6 and 2...c6 is bad. But the move order does give an additional option, so it's not a free lunch.

Thanks for the answers, guys.

1..Nf6 and 2..c6 is interesting, though White still can play 3.e4 (after 1.c4 2.Nc3) and I have the same dilemma as with 1..c6 2.e4. Also White can play 1.c4 Nf6 2.d4 c6 3.Nc3 d5 4.e3 (without Nf3) and I can't play a normal Slav with Bf5 (and don't really want a Semi-Slav).

I will have to think about what to play here. Maybe really just play the Panov as McLovin suggests.

Let's put it this way: On top level chess nobody plays the Panov with white anymore and there must be a reason for that.

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1290358

Fashion comes to mind; as soon as someone wins a nice game for White or players get tired of the latest hot idea, someone will again take up the cudgels.