In certain variations of the QGD, black will often play ...dxc4 (fairly early in the games, moves 8-10 or so) followed by ...b5 after white plays Bxc4, putting the question to the bishop. Do any of y'all have any good guidelines or rules of thumb for deciding between a retreat to b3, d3, or e2? I've yet to wrap my head around where that bishop belongs, and which square is necessary for which conditions.

I know this is a vague question, but any help at all would be appreciated.

It would be really helpful if you posted some specific lines.

These days I usually take on d5 myself at some point, but when I was younger I used this type of line with solid results: 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Bg5 Be7 5. e3 0-0 6. Nf3 c6 7. Rc1 Nbd7 8. a3 and now if black goes for dxc4 then Bxc4 b5 Ba2 --> Bb1 and Qd3/Qc2 for a battery. If black does not take on c4, it is not so easy for him to make two useful moves, because I still have Qc2 in reserve.

Yeah you're right, asking a question like this without specific lines is nearly pointless. Let me find one from a recent game.

Here's one from a game I played earlier tonight. White to move.



Here are the moves that led to that position with the PGN below. Note, in this line, 10.a3 is a better move and is played by the high rated guys instead of 10.Bd3, as I played. 10.Bd3 is still playable and isn't a horrible move, it's just not the most common.

http://www.chessvideos.tv/chess-game...r.php?id=74882

So in the diagram position, where are you putting the bishop and why? I see your point now YKW, that 10.a3 is the better move to be able to retreat the bishop to a2. So now that we have to live with my Bd3 inaccuracy, what do you want to do with the bishop here?

In this position I don't like Bd3 much, but a case can be made for both Be2 and Bb3. I would probably choose Bb3, hoping to put some pressure on the a2-g8 diagonal somewhere down the stretch. But all in all, I don't really like white's position anymore. It's not bad in general, it's just that black seems to get the kind of play he has been hoping for.

To me the real problem is your moves 8,9, 10 and 11.

Ok, let's say Qc2 is probably fine, even though to me it's already a slight inaccuracy because it limits your options.

Now 9. Rd1 I just find weird. Question 1: what is your other rook going to do on either f or e files? Question 2: You know that black is planning for b5 at some point - why not put the rook on c1 from where it is prepared to put pressure? The other rook can then go to d1 for solid development.

If 8-9-10 are just inaccuracies, I'd say that 11.0-0 is a big inaccuracy/borderline mistake (I know I know, it sounds hilarious that castling in the opening could by a mistake at any point, but hear me out). Timing is absolutely essential in openings since it is so important to prepare your/prevent your opponents plans. Your king is not in any kind of danger and there is no need to castle right away giving away some precious time, especially because you KNOW what his plan is and you KNOW that you will be presented with the dilemma after dxc4 and b5. cxd5, a3 or a4 are all better than 0-0 IMO.

Basically, I agree that the dilemma in the position you've posted is not an easy one. However, with correct play and some preparation this dilemma should never arise, it is just a non issue. It's weird that you know what black's idea is and don't do anything to prepare/prevent it. If you don't like the a3-Ba2 idea there are still multiple ways to prevent this problem from arising.

Sorry for the aggressive tone of the post, I'm a bit cranky Hope this helps!

Haha, no need to apologize, I appreciate any help you're willing to give.

I actually used to play the ideas/line you're talking about, with the rooks to c1 and d1 and continue from there depending on what black does. But I started playing the Qc2 then Rd1 line from above due to the recommendation of a GM. The basic idea behind the line is that the rook quickly comes to d1 to align itself with the black queen and discourage a c5 push. Part of that idea is that the black queen really lacks a good square in this opening, so the early Rd1 idea is annoying for black. Then the other rook comes to e1 so that white can either play for e4 if black doesn't challenge the center, or if black tries a b6->c5 idea and a hanging pawn structure arises, white is well-positioned to play e4 and break up the pawns.

It looked more awkward to me at first than with the rooks on e1 and d1 because c1 and d1 seem much more natural, but so far my results have been pretty positive with it. I looked through Mega Database 2010 shortly after learning about this idea, and after 7...Nbd7, 8.Qc2 has been played by names like Kasparov, Krasenkow, Dreev, Van Wely, Cheparinov, Korchnoi, Sokolov, and a few other 2600+ guys, so it must be pretty solid.

After the most common line which is 8.Qc2 O-O 9.Rd1 b6, white is pretty evenly split between 10.cxd5 and 10.Bd3, with 10.Bd3 being a bit more popular.

Here's a game from Sokolov in the 9.Rd1 line.

http://www.chessvideos.tv/chess-game...r.php?id=74886

Personally I think the whole idea with Qc2 and Rd1 is fine although I tended to play exchange variations or Bf4 against the QGD so I've little experience with it. It's a plan that's been around for 90+ years so it can't be that bad!

As played in the original line d3 looks the right square to retreat to since we are trying to keep control over e4. It also prevents Black from activating his Nf8 to g6 (generally not a good idea to play h6 in conjunction with the Nf8 plan since all it does is reduce the N to a purely defensive piece. 13... b4 can be met with Na4 looking to put pressure on the weakened Q-side so all looks in order for White.

My impression (based on looking at some games around the semi-slav position I posted in the low content thread recently) is that in these pawn structures, White either prefers to play Ba2 or Bd3.

So YouKnowWho's criticism is very convincing to me, but in this particular position, I would play Bd3.

Sad but I did a little bit of research into this line and it looks poor for Black because of h6!

The normal way for Black to free himself with some exchanges here is to play dxc4 followed by Nd5 exchanging the dark squared bishops. However after h6 Bh4 White can now play Bg3 keeping the pieces on and keeping Black short of space.

There also seems to be another subtlety in this line though - that Black has already played c6. In a lot of the QGD lines with Nbd7 White can't play Bd3 because of dxc4 followed by c5 immediately which seems to equalise. However once Black has played c6 this loses a tempo and White keeps an advantage - therefore the most accurate move would appear to be 8 Bd3. e.g. 8.... O-O; 9 O-O dxc4; 10 Bxc4 b5; 11 Bd3 Bb7; 12 Rc1 Rc8; 13 Qe2 b4; 14 Na4 Qa5; 15 b3 c5; 16 Ne5 as once played by Tal

At a glance -har, that is becoming my trademark- from the diagram I like Be2. Idea is simply to play Ne5 and Bf3 though I'm not stoked about 1. Be2 Bb7 2. Ne5 N8d7. Hmmm 1. Be2 Bb7 2. Bxf6 gxf 3. Ne4 looks rather sexy for white. Ok then perhaps 1. Be2 N8d7. Yip not so pretty again. Hrm. Ok, now I'm starting to like: 1. Bxf6!? Bxf6 2. Be2 and I'm not sure what black can do. It just looks like we're getting nice pressure down the queenside as well as control of c5. Yip, I'll stick with that.

That's an interesting plan DiR, I didn't consider that. I get pretty dogmatic about not considering voluntary bishop captures on f6 in the QGD. I typically only capture if forced, but your line certainly looks interesting.

1Bxf6 Bxf6 2Be2 Qb6!? planning Bb7 and maybe a6 to stabilise the Qside before trying to free the position.

Aye but the problem is that black is facing immediate threats and just doesn't have enough time:

1. Bxf6 Bxf6 2. Be2 Qb6 3. Ne4 and black already has major dark square problems.

3. .. Be7 4. Ne5 and black's position is falling apart.

3. .. Nd7 4. Nxf6 Nxf6 5. Ne5 Bb7 6. Bf3 and white gets his fantasy setup.

I also played the exchange exclusively and still got a lot of practice in the Qc2 Rd1 line. It usually came up against lower-rated players via 1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Nc3 e6 5. Bg5 Be7 6. e3 Nbd7 7. Qc2 0-0 8. Rd1.

I'm a bit torn between 8. Rd1 and 0-0-0 here, 8. Rd1 is very comfortable for white but black can get a solid position with a bit of care. I agree that after Re8, 10. a3 has to be the move.

To be honest I hated Black's position after about move 4 but that's another story!

If I were Black here though I'd be happier in the top line since even if I drop a couple of pawns I always have the 2 Bishops to try to set traps with later! White is obviously better but at least it keeps some play.

(Still think 8Bd3 is better though! )