You do also have to be ready for 1.e4 c5 2.f4 d5 3.exd5 Nf6 4.Bb5+

Ok, but the whole line is pretty nice for black.

Yeah, sorry I forgot to mention about the ...Nf6 that is a better move order, agreed.

I have played around 10 games with this in 5-minute internet, and I still have problems against 2. Nc3.

Just go 2...e6 and meet either 3. g3 or 3. f4 with 3...d5.

Yeah I think this is clearly the best plan. And if white then plays 3. Nf3 or something then just make useful but noncommital moves like a6 and see if white is aiming to transpose to an open sicilian or if he's going to play g3 or something even sillier like d3. He'll have to show his hand pretty quickly. An early Nc6 is logical and tempting but you have to then be ready for the possibility of a hoard of new [and many very sharp] variations.

More move order fun stuff against a decent opponent:

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Qb6 5. Nb3 Qc7 6. Nc3 a6 7. Bd3 Nf6 8. O-O b5 9. Be3 Bb7 10. a3 h5 11. f3 Bd6 12. g3 =+ when black already has the choice of a draw on move 12. Of course I played on with 12. .. h4 and after 13. f4?! hxg 14. hxg my intuition wanted to play 14. .. g5 which was correct, but I couldn't find the exact idea which was 14. .. g5! 15. fxg Bc5! which I think is an incredible position for black but the game is obviously far from over.

It really is funny to see how absolutely terrible players play when the position changes in not so subtle a fashion. f3 is just never good in these sort of positions and makes zero sense, yet decent players somehow keep deciding to play it.

As an aside I think my 10. .. h5 is probably a ?!. I think it's somewhat too committal and premature. After the much more logical 11. h3 black's move looks a little silly and hasn't accomplished much besides weakening his kingside.

What do you guys do after 2...e6 3. d3 i went with Nc6 I'm assuming we're going to transpose into some sort of closed scillian. This is vs Voja IM in 60/60 simul on icc.

I'd probably go 3...d5 there.

3 ... d5 will lead you to a standard French KIA position after Nbd2 which should be fine. I'd personally prefer Nc6, g6, Bg7, Nge7 and get a normalish closed Sicilian position. I think either is probably just fine and a matter of taste.

I like 3. .. b5. It seems to have a somewhat similar structure (or at least transpositional possibilities) to a structure somewhat similar to the london system as in after c3/d4, only perhaps better for black due to wasted time, and I think the london system already is quite good for black. That aside, I reason that if he's giving you the opportunity to grab space for no real cost then why not take it.

The closed sicilian isn't particularly dangerous. Just play good moves and you'll end up with a good position. There's a ton of possibilities, as this post shows being now the third reasonable alternative in the 3 responses you've received.

Ok I didn't think this "trap" was worth mentioning, but now that a decent IM just walked into it, I guess it is:

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Qb6 5. Nc3 Bc5 6. Nce2?? e5 -+

for example: 7. Nf5 Bxf2+ 8. Kd2 g6 9. Nfg3 Qe3# 0-1

It's kind of strange. I think only a strong player would consider a move like Ne2. In fact I don't think anybody under 2100 has fallen for this against me. Kind of a paradoxical little blunder. You have to be strong to blunder like this!

3.- Nc6 4.g3 Bd6 (originally played by Portisch in 1994)
It's the least boredom against 3.d3 for me, and it even scores well for Black in my database

What does the bishop do on d6? I understand you can block the d-pawn because your other bishop can go on b7, but it doesn't seem to do anything useful there.

It goes back to c7 and sometimes later on to b6 and a5. What I like about the variation is that it's very flexible, many grandmasters have played it and gone for many different kinds of structures from French to Sicilian to Ruy Lopez types of pawn structures. Basically you play Bc7, Nge7 (some have played Nf6 too), castle and then decide on d7-d6 or d7-d5 depending on what White has been up to.
I guess one could say it's somewhat less in the way and more active than on e7 and doesn't weaken dark squares on the kingside like g6-Bg7 (though both are certainly playable as well, especially g6 imo).

Bump

4 ...Qb6 5. Nb5

wat? The idea is Be3 when queen is sad.

Not sure what happends after 5-Bc5, which is awkward for white unless 6.Bf4 works 6-Bxf2+ 7.Ke2 Na6. I leave it to someone with Rybka to check this.
5-a6 6.Be3 Bc5 7.Bxc5 Qxc5 8.Nd6+Ke7 migth be ok.

5. Nb5 Bc5 6. Be3!

Black has to choose between 5...Bc5 and 5...a6.

After 5...Bc5 6.Be3! Bxe3 7.fxe3 Qxe3+ 8.Be2 Na6 9.N1c3 (The immidiate Nd6+ is not bad either.) White has at least sufficient compensation for the pawn.

So Black should probably play 5...a6 6.Be3 Qa5+.

This works well after 7.Bd2 Qd8 when 8.Nd4 gives him a good Sicilian Kan (1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 a6 5.Bd2?) and after 8.N5c3 or 8.N5a3 the white pieces on the left are sort of stomping on each others feet.

More of a problem is 7.N5c3 when the other white knight will come into play via d2 but Black should be OK after 7...Nc6, 7...b5 or 7...d6.

White has also the pawn sacrefice 7.b4!? which so far has not occured in practice. After both 7...Qxb4+ 8.c3 Qa5 9.Nd6+ Bxd6 10.Qxd6 and 7...Bxb4+ 8.c3 axb5 9.cxb4 Qxb4+ 10.Nd2 Nc6 11.Rb1! White gets good compensation on the dark squares.

I'm sad to say that I've spent many hours analyzing what I think busts this variation. I can't figure out a way to get around this.

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Qb6 5. Be3! Bc5 6. Nb5

Very similar to the variation Garcia/Heron mentioned, except now a better way of getting there as it forces it without allowing black to a6/Qa5+ stuff.

I have pages of analysis although it's probably not too useful to just do a database dump. White is able to maintain a bind no matter what black does, unless he tries something crazy like 6. .. d5. It requires insanely computer accurate moves from white like one variation:

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Qb6 5. Be3! Bc5 6. Nb5 Bxe3 7. Bxe3 Ke7 8. Qd3!!

That is an incredible move, and literally the only playable move for white. The point being:

8. .. a6 9. Qa3+! d6 10. e5 +-

But like I always said, the point of the variation wasn't to play for traps or try to 'trick' white somehow. I was convinced this variation was rock solid theoretically. It's kind of sickening to drop this because of some obscure variation that nobody ever plays, but I guess it's the right decision.

If somebody can give a playable variation for black against this line, that'd be nice to say the least. But I think it's impossible.

Bronznik in "Sizilianich für Mussiggänger" gives 6.-Bxe3 7.fxe3 Qxe3+ 8.Be2 Na6! 9.N1c3 Nh6! 10.Nd6+ Ke7 11.Nc4 Qc5 12.a3!? Ng4! unclear as the main line (his punctuation) and considers the whole line as risky for White as is it for Black

But what of a move such as 12. e5. This was the problem I kept running into. Not when white gets some dangerous initiative or anything, but more of a positional kill. I mean sure white's down a pawn, but geeze - what compensation he has. It's just not a position I can stomach as being one I would voluntarily play as black.

EDIT: that's not to say white doesn't have a dangerous initative. Blegh. It's just a combination of everything. He has a very dangerous initiative, positional domination and I have... a pawn.

any time i see 4. ...Qb6 i am pretty much put on life tilt

Ke7? just play Nc6

I'm giving up on it.

There are so many ways for white to make things super dangerous for Black with Nb5, or sometimes with a choice of Ncb5 or Ndb5...

Not to mention the very first time I played it OTB, I got:

4...Qb6 5.Nc3 Bc5 6.Na4 Qa5+ 7.Nc3

vs. a lower rated player I usually beat with black in a normal Scheveningen/Najdorf. I tired to mix it up and almost got into trouble, but instead had to offer my opponent a chance to force repetition, which he did.

I'm moving to 4...a6, but I'm actually a bit overwhelmed by the tremendous flexibility of Black's choices. But whatever, at least I'll get something Scheveningen-like without allowing my 2000 rated opponents to whip off 15, 20 or 25 grandmaster approved moves in a dangerous attacking system without even having to think.