This is exciting. A rare but apparently sound pet sideline, against someone who has seen it before and specifically prepped for it. I can't wait to see how this plays out

Really not that much to add here. It's necessary to castle before taking concrete actions on the Q-side because after something like ...b4 10. a5 the threat of Ba4 gives White the initiative.

Now the most likely choice for white is h3, but it might also be feasible to play a slow setup with d3 and then Nd2-f1-g3. h3 will lead to concrete play over the next moves, whereas the other plan looks like a typical Ruy maneuvring struggle where i should be slightly better placed than in the main lines.

What he does with this bishop will dictate how I play. It honestly doesn't have any good squares from here. Exchanging it gives me the bishop pair and develops my queen to the kingside. Bh5 misplaces it and I can take advantage with d3, Nbd2, Nf1, g4 Ng3. Be6 I just play d4 threatening Bxe6 followed by d5. Bd7 is very passive and Bc8 is a waste of time.

I think I would have preferred na5 to castling. White can probably have the choice of grabbing the b pawn on b3, b4 or b5 but black will always get something for it.

After Bh5 11. g4 Bg6 12. d3 the bishop seems misplaced and white's kingside expansion is actually quite thematic in this kind of position. It fits well with the typical Nd2-f1-g3 plan.
Bd7 also looks strange, White would have gained the useful h3 move for free. So Bxf3 is it. It's also still theory of course, like outlined in a previous post.

If I'm not mistaken, Kasparov lost the white side of this position against Ivanchuk. I do not rmemeber how that game played out from here except that I thought Kasparov was playing too passive. I recall loosely analyzing this position with a computer. I was always afraid of 11...Na5 12. Ba2 bxa4 with the plan of Nb3 to hold on to the won pawn but my computer said white was fine in the line. Problem is I don't remember why. Maybe it is because if Nb3 is played and I take with the bishop and open the a file I can easily snap back the pawn on b3 or pile up on the a file to win the a6 pawn. So maybe

11...Na5
12. Ba2 bxa4
13. d3(or d4) Nb3
14. Bxb3 axb3
15. Ra3

with plans of Be3-Nd2 and Rea1

It's good to know some of the 'rules' of the openings you play.

In the closed Ruy Lopez, White should 'never' trade his light-squared bishop for another minor piece so early in the game.


In the above line, White's proposed 13th move seems completely foolish.

11...Na5
12. Ba2 bxa4
13. d3(or d4) Nb3


White should simply play 13. Bxa4 (or even 13. Rxa4)

Why would White allow Black to play Nb3?

a != c (added some bold for hopeful clarity)

My bad.

The bishop usually belongs on c2 rather than a2. That's an almost instinctive move for a Lopez player. There are obviously exceptions, but I don't see why that would be true in this game.

So, of course, I'm saying
11...Na5
12. Bc2 bxa4
13. Bxa4


If White were to play Ba2, Black's best approach may not even be taking the pawn immediately. Balck could play 12...c5 with a future ...c4 shutting the light-squared bishop out of the action (until it inevitably moves to b1).

As i said, it's still theory (or at least i think it is). The plan is to play 12. Bc2 b4 and hit white where it hurts (on the Q-side light squares). 13. cxb4 Nc6 should be good compensation for black, white has to use the Queen to protect the extra pawn with Qb3 or Qc3 and then black's Q-side counterplay comes pretty much automatically with moves like Rb8, Nd4 and Qd7.

I hope i'm not confusing lines here and fall into the trap of "sacrificing a pawn because i think it's theory" , but to be honest the resulting position looks ok to me at this point. Needless to say white should decline the pawn and get on with his K-side and central play.

I've spent a few days looking at this position and am not happy about it. Maybe my 10.h3 move was a mistake and 10.Ba2 or 10.d3 would have been better. After 11...Na5 I really want 12.Ba2 but then comes 12...b4! threatening b3 and if I take 13.cxb4 then there is a big hole on d4. I played around with a lot of lines but I see no advantage for white and I might have missed some opportunities for black

12. Ba2 b4 13. cxb4 Nc6 14. b5 axb5 15. axb5 Nd4 16. Qd3 Rb8 17. Nc3 Qd7 18. Bc4 Nh5 19. Nd5 Bg5 20. Ra7 Nf4 21. Nxf4 Bxf4 22. b4 Nxb5 23. Bxb5 Qxb5 24. Qxb5 Rxb5 25. Rxc7 Rxb4 26. Rd7 Rd4 27. Ba3 Bxd2 28. Rb1 Rxe4 29. Bxd6 Rc8

I think after 11...Na5 this may have been the Kasparov Ivanchuk game and Kasparov played Bd1 here. He lost so I want to play something different. I may follow up Bc2 with b4 to move that pesky knight away and fix pressure on b5. With the bishop on the b2-h7 diagonal I must focus my attack on the center and on the queenside and will probably slide my queen back to e2

Continuing along the projected line, we approach rapidly my "out of the book"-point. As i said, i believe taking the pawn gives me easy play and sufficient compensation. After 13. d4, i will play c5 to maintain the cramping pawn on b4. The whole thing is strategically risky for black, so i have to maintain my queenside initiative at almost all costs because if play calms down, white's bishops will be a dominant factor in the long run. I'll do my best to use my extra space on the queenside to try and stifle his light-squared bishop.

Putting all my pawns on black squares doesn't make my remaining bishop happy, but i'm sure it will find a role sooner or later. Most bishops aren't that bad with a space advantage, and there is also the very useful rule from white's point of view that owning the bishop pair, you should make your extra bishop the good one because it's less likely to get exchanged. So i hope the Bc2 will become a bad piece in the late middlegame.

Nikachu getting outprepared here, looks like ND is much more aware of what is going on here. Not worse than equal obviously, but it's easy to slide into a worse position from a situation like this. Funny how he worried so much about b4 in response to Ba2 and then didnt consider it at all after Bc2

is cxb4 Nc6 Qc3 Nd4 worth considering at all for white? now either Bd1 with the idea of Na3-c2 (might be too slow?) or maybe even b3 to have Ba3 to protect the pawn. A pawn is a pawn like old-school Soviet GM's used to say black has some compensation, but if he doesn't follow up energetically it won't take long for white to trade the knight and just be a comfortable pawn up..

As the participants seem to vaguely recall, they are in fact following the Kasparov-Ivanchuk game from the 2002 Eurotel Rapid.

I have included the game below (without comments), though I do have the game annotated in my database by Wedberg.

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O Be7 6. Re1 b5 7. Bb3 d6 8. a4 Bg4 9. c3 O-O 10. h3 Bxf3 11. Qxf3 Na5 12. Bc2 b4 13. d4 c5 14. dxe5 dxe5 15. Nd2 Nd7 16. Bd3 Nb6 17. Bf1 c4 18. Qg3 Qc7 19. Nf3 Rfe8 20. Bh6 Bf8 21. cxb4 Nb3 22. Ra3 a5 23. bxa5 Rxa5 24. Ra2 Rxa4 25. Rxa4 Nxa4 26. Nh4 g6 27. Bxf8 Rxf8 28. Nf5 Nxb2 29. Rb1 Na4 30. Bxc4 Qxc4 31. Rxb3 Qxe4 32. Rf3 Nc5 33. Qg5 f6 34. Ne7+ Kg7 35. Qc1 Ne6 36. Ra3 Nf4 0-1

Regarding YKW's suggestion, the game notes simply say "For good reasons, no-one has tried 13.cxb4?! Nc6 The white position is not beautiful" with arrows from the c6 knight pointing to b4 & d4. And as far as my database goes, no-one HAS tried cxb4!

after 13.cxb4 Nc6 14.Qc3, 14.-Qd7 (intending rfb8 or maybe 15.d3 d5)looks like a very serious option to Nd4

yep you are right, Qd7 looks like a very good alternative, no need to commit with Nd4 when it doesn't really achieve anything anyway. But then maybe Bd3 and if d5 b5?

does bd3 rfb8 win the b-pawn? (b5 axb5 Bxb5 Rxb5 and I don't think White gets compensation after axb)

YNW and smilingbill are putting on a show in this thread. Keep up the great work guys, I really like reading y'alls thoughts on the position.

but knight on c6 is hanging with a tempo on d7 no? just to make sure we are talking about same thing, 13. cxb4 Nc6 14. Qc3 Qd7 15. Bd3 Rfb8 16. b5 axb5 17. Bxb5 Rxb5 18. axb5 Rxa1 19. bxc6 Q somewhere 20. N somewhere leaves white a pawn up still.

with my Bishop on c2 planning to go to d3, I don't see what is so threatening about this b4 move now. Of course if I take I will be in a world of hurt via Nc6 to d4 but this is not checkers. I don't really have a lot of alternative moves here because I need to get my queenside pieces off the back rank.

I very much dislike the fact that it seems that he does not even consider the possibilities.. The analysis ends at "i have a hole on d4, he has a knight on c6, b4 is a target, I am screwed".

Yes, taking is very much against the principles and there is probably a reason why it isn't played. But specific lines HAVE to be considered IMO. It's a pawn!!!

You Qc3 guys are nuts imo.

I don't think black needs to try to get his pawn back there. Simply rush for d5 while white's entire position is basically broken and things look like they go from bad to worse. 1. Qc3 Qd7 2. Bd3 d5 and I don't see any reasonable way for white to continue.

b5, like mentioned before.