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12-13-2009 , 07:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gonzalo86
great thread all around im thinking of going back to the french and playing d4 again I mostly play najdorf as black vs e4 and kid vs d4 but probly going to play the nimzow and qid from now on vs d4 not sure yet just started playing on gameknot and my rating is 1622 when i was in school my uschess.org rating was like 1320ish anyone know any good books on the nimzow and Qid by any chance? also anyone have any thoughts on the trompowsky?
lots of books on the nimzo and qid. Andrew Greet has a new book out on the QID. I liked his book on the Ruy Lopez, he does a good job.

as far as the tromp goes, "winning with the trompowsky" is one of the best opening books ever. also wells is a great author.

one caveat tho, while the tromp is usually viewed as a quick fix that requires little knowledge and can be mastered fairly easily, I think the opposite is actually true. Black has several options against it, and each one can produce very different types of positions and pawn structures, requiring a pretty broad knowledge to be able to play them well.
I'm not saying you wont get good positions after the opening tho.
this is coming from a fellow class player, i'm obviously no authority on the tromp.
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12-13-2009 , 07:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jontsef
as far as the tromp goes, "winning with the trompowsky" is one of the best opening books ever. also wells is a great author.
Agreed. It's a great repertoire book and presents a couple of main options for White against most of the major replies.

That said, I think you might be better off playing against the mainlines, especially if you're planning on getting better. You're going to want to understand them eventually anyway, and it'll be more useful to your chess in the long term to learn the basics of playing against QID, Nimzo, KID, etc. than to learn the details of a Tromp repertoire.

But if decide you want to play the Tromp, Wells' book is a great place to start. I'm not up to date on the theory so certain lines may have aged, but I'd bet that the book is still the best source, though it might be a little technical in parts for someone under 1400?
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12-21-2009 , 12:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gonzalo86
great thread all around im thinking of going back to the french and playing d4 again I mostly play najdorf as black vs e4 and kid vs d4 but probly going to play the nimzow and qid from now on vs d4 not sure yet just started playing on gameknot and my rating is 1622 when i was in school my uschess.org rating was like 1320ish anyone know any good books on the nimzow and Qid by any chance? also anyone have any thoughts on the trompowsky?
Your rating is around 1400? Let's see:

(1) I wouldn't play the French. The French is a positionally complex and closed opening. I would aim for something more classical. I think the Najdorf Sicilian is also too hard. Anything wrong with 1...e5?

Of course, objectively speaking, both the French and the Najdorf are fine. The Najdorf is the main line of e4 (insofar as there is one) and in an absolute sense I would recommend it over the French. The Tarrasch can be frustrating to play against with Black in the French, although there are systems out there.

(2) I wouldn't play an Indian defense either. How about the Tarrasch? That line goes: 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c5 and usually leads to an isolani position, which will teach you a lot about chess.

Objectively speaking, both the King's Indian and Nimzo-Indian are the credited response to d4, at least until you feel like you have little left to learn about middle-games.

For players under 1800, I think you should aim for a simple, classical and dynamic opening repertoire. If you were, say, 2200 I think these ideas would be more appropriate (indeed, I think the standard opening repertoire around 2200 is the Najdorf / Two Knights / Kan / Taimanov / Scheveningen paired with the Nimzo-Queens / King's Indian, depending on style.
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12-21-2009 , 02:19 PM
I wouldn't touch the Tarrasch. I think it's another opening that black has to really be creative and have some unique ideas and insight into or white just plays the same basic idea as has been played for 90 years (with g3/etc) and gets a dominating position.

Even Kasparov said it's reputation is probably more a result of trends based on his final poor results with it rather than anything objective... but on the other hand, he too decided to drop it after losing with it.
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12-21-2009 , 04:05 PM
There is no doubt that g3 is better for White. I've not seen it played against my students below about 1800 with any sense for White's reasoning in the position. It's not losing by any means, but I agree it's better for White.

The point though is that this is for a 1400. The Tarrasch gets an isolani, so it makes more of the games more instructive.

If the poster is not comfortable playing the line, there are a few good systems in the QGD that get active play based on the noteboom. They are a bit harder though - too hard, I think, for 1400.
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12-21-2009 , 10:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dire
I wouldn't touch the Tarrasch. I think it's another opening that black has to really be creative and have some unique ideas and insight into or white just plays the same basic idea as has been played for 90 years (with g3/etc) and gets a dominating position.

Even Kasparov said it's reputation is probably more a result of trends based on his final poor results with it rather than anything objective... but on the other hand, he too decided to drop it after losing with it.
i love the Tarrasch, one of my favorite defenses..... the only problem its kinda very dry. its not very "powerful" but perfectly playable. either you are 100% brilliant at it or it can hurt you.... but i believe if one study it very deeply practice a lot, write all down on a .doc and tests all blitz games with computer and database it can be playable and profitable



GM Akobian is brilliant using it

have seen him defeating Jobava on blitz on ICC and many others

but he still uses it. if im not mistaken he used it this world cup......and didnt lose

he defeated some strong players and drew with anothers
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12-21-2009 , 10:24 PM
found the game

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1564908

honestly i dont see why its better for white with g3...................
tregubov is 2642 obviously studied this variation knowing that akobian is the best of world on tarrasch

and lost


chess is chess

i doubt Rybka would lose a match against carlsen 20 games in a row using black in this opening
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12-21-2009 , 10:38 PM
i have no doubt this sacriface in Rxe3 is home preparation by akobian
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12-22-2009 , 02:24 AM
No, that sacrifice is not home prep. In that position Rxe3 is pretty much the only playable move for black which is why you need to be quite strong to play such mediocre openings. If one would not see such moves, he will constantly end up with terrible passive weak positions. Black has to play very creatively to make the opening work. The same reason I would never recommend it to anybody. If a GM wants to torture himself making something out of nothing, of course that's his choice.

For what it's worth he followed up terribly after the sacrifice. It's inexplicable why he didn't play then natural and obvious Bc5. After 20. .. Qe6 white has 21. e4 +-. Even more obvious is 24. Rxf6 gxf6?! 25. Rxc6 +- I'm guessing one or both of them were both under extreme time pressure. Tregubov brought the game out of book very quickly by taking a secondary line against it, and even there deviating very fast with 13. Nc3.
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12-22-2009 , 04:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dire
No, that sacrifice is not home prep. In that position Rxe3 is pretty much the only playable move for black which is why you need to be quite strong to play such mediocre openings. If one would not see such moves, he will constantly end up with terrible passive weak positions. Black has to play very creatively to make the opening work. The same reason I would never recommend it to anybody. If a GM wants to torture himself making something out of nothing, of course that's his choice.

For what it's worth he followed up terribly after the sacrifice. It's inexplicable why he didn't play then natural and obvious Bc5. After 20. .. Qe6 white has 21. e4 +-. Even more obvious is 24. Rxf6 gxf6?! 25. Rxc6 +- I'm guessing one or both of them were both under extreme time pressure. Tregubov brought the game out of book very quickly by taking a secondary line against it, and even there deviating very fast with 13. Nc3.


20...Bc5?! 21.Rd3

A) 21...Qe6 22.Kf2 Re8 23.Nd1 Qf5+ 24.Ke1!! how can black defend Bc5 and c6 now?
B) 21...Re8 22.Qxc6 Bxe3 23.Rxd3 then Nxd5 does the job

21.e4 Bc5+
22. Kh1 d4

A) 23.Nb1 Nxe4 -+
B) 23.Qa5 Qe7! 24. Na4 Bb4 Qa6 Nxe4 Rxd4 Nf2+ Kg1 Qe3 -+
B1) 23.Qa5 Qe7! 24. Na4 Bb4 Qb6 Bxe2 Rxd4 Bb5 Nc3 Bc5 -+ (b3 instead of Nc3 then Ba3 Rc1 Ng4 very weird position)

Last edited by bradpittbr; 12-22-2009 at 05:05 AM.
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12-22-2009 , 05:09 AM
maybe this instead

B1) 23.Qa5 Qe7! 24. Na4 Bb4 Qb6 c5 a3 Nd7 Qb5 Qc4 Ne5 Qb3 c4 Qa2 Bc5
or
B1) 23.Qa5 Qe7! 24. Na4 Bb4 Qb6 Nd7 Qb7 Rb8 Qxc6 Ne5 then d3 or Bxe2

B2) 23.Qa5 Qe7! 24.Na4 Ba7! seems to be enough tho.....

Last edited by bradpittbr; 12-22-2009 at 05:19 AM.
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12-22-2009 , 05:23 AM
20. .. Bc5 21. Rd3? Bxe2 -+

Even fun (although certainly worse than Bxe2) is 20. .. Bc5 21. Rd3 Qxd3!? 22. exd3 Bxe3+ 23. Kh1 Bxc1 with a strange material imbalance, but black's pieces are working quite well together.

Best is probably to just immediately return the exchange with Rd4 when the position is pretty much equal.
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12-22-2009 , 05:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dire
20. .. Bc5 21. Rd3? Bxe2 -+

Even fun (although certainly worse than Bxe2) is 20. .. Bc5 21. Rd3 Qxd3!? 22. exd3 Bxe3+ 23. Kh1 Bxc1 with a strange material imbalance, but black's pieces are working quite well together.

Best is probably to just immediately return the exchange with Rd4 when the position is pretty much equal.

bxe2 is a good point but its not really obviousy before Bc5

thats probably why he prefered Qe6 afraid of Rd3 etc


what about the lines against e4?
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12-22-2009 , 06:22 AM
I really doubt a 2650 just missed Bxe2. I saw it pretty much instantly and a 2650 is at least a little bit stronger than me.

As for e4 stuff, you're forgetting that white is up an exchange. After 21. e4 Bc5+ 22. Kh1 d4 white just again returns the exchange with Rxd4. And white's up a clean two pawns.
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12-22-2009 , 08:22 AM
Come on guys, it was a blitz game...
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12-22-2009 , 08:28 AM
Did not know that.
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12-23-2009 , 04:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradpittbr
i doubt Rybka would lose a match against carlsen 20 games in a row using black in this opening
I doubt Rybka would lose a game against Carlsen using this opening in a twenty game match.

In similar news, I don't think the average 2200 would win any games with White against Carlsen.
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