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Material or Structure Here? Material or Structure Here?

07-24-2009 , 10:04 AM
This position is from a 5-minute game on ICC. I'm black. Do you play d4 here and take the piece for 2 pawns (or 1 pawn and a broken kingside pawn structure like in the game)? Or should I keep the center intact? If you don't play d4 here, what is the plan? I'm guessing we play against e5 and f2, but for some reason I'm struggling to come up with anything I'm really happy about.

Material or Structure Here? Quote
07-24-2009 , 10:58 AM
Play ...d4, it just wins.
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07-24-2009 , 01:57 PM
And if you don't play d4, he's going to plop something there and have the same plan of rolling the k-side, only you won't be a piece up.
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07-24-2009 , 02:12 PM
I'm not sure about the "rolling the k-side" plan being so easy to implement; this is a normal French structure, plus white making some weakening moves. The second player will always have his chances here.

But it's not so relevant since ...d4 wins.
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07-25-2009 , 01:07 AM
I like d4 not because of the material it gains but because his dark bishop is a critical piece. When it's gone Nf3 (and f2) are going to be big targets. And Bxe6+ is met with Bf7 already preparing to pile up on the f file.
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07-25-2009 , 01:10 AM
What I mean is if somehow d4 won the light bishop then I would not like it since white does get quite alot of compensation and chances to complicate what is currently a pretty bad position with lots of weaknesses. But once the e3 bishop or Nf3, or just generally his kingside defenders, get misplaced then the game is going to end quickly.
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07-25-2009 , 08:10 PM
lol wat

The light squared bishop is white's better B in this structure.
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07-26-2009 , 11:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by omgzacefron
lol wat

The light squared bishop is white's better B in this structure.
No it's not.

Thanks for the comment though.
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07-27-2009 , 12:20 AM
Ok, to not be a jackass and just meet an idiotic comment with an idiotic comment:

The easiest way to see why the dark bishop is critical is to imagine what the position would be like without it. If the dark bishop were gone then Rf4 basically immediately wins for black. He will follow up with Rf8 and Be4 and white can resign. The problem for white is that he has almost no way of getting reasonable counterplay in this position. Which is why it's not clear that d4 is obviously the best move since it allows white to complicate matters a bit. But if black can get rid of the dark bishop, then the win is simple.

Now compare this to the light bishop being removed from the board. Pretty much nothing changes, except maybe allowing some misguided and inappropriate plan of fighting along the c file. White's bishop is clearly his worse position in this position and I'm not sure what fooled you into thinking otherwise.
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07-27-2009 , 01:48 PM
Yes, I guess d5-d4 just wins. I would play 1...d4 Bxe6+ Kh8 though, because after an exchange at f7 White could win a tempo with e5-e6 (Black is still winning there, of course). After 2...Kh8, Black will have time to follow up with e.g. Nb6-d5 undisturbed after which Black's pieces dominate.

I don't really see a reason to pass up the offer because the position appears to be won for Black rather easily. If you want to go for structure you could play 1...Qb8 (not 1...Qc7 because of 2. Rc1) and now White must either give up e5 or his dark-squared bishop that is protecting every important square. Black is certainly better after 2. Bxb6 axb6 but he must be much better than that by simple taking the piece.
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08-03-2009 , 10:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dire
Ok, to not be a jackass and just meet an idiotic comment with an idiotic comment:

The easiest way to see why the dark bishop is critical is to imagine what the position would be like without it. If the dark bishop were gone then Rf4 basically immediately wins for black. He will follow up with Rf8 and Be4 and white can resign. The problem for white is that he has almost no way of getting reasonable counterplay in this position. Which is why it's not clear that d4 is obviously the best move since it allows white to complicate matters a bit. But if black can get rid of the dark bishop, then the win is simple.

Now compare this to the light bishop being removed from the board. Pretty much nothing changes, except maybe allowing some misguided and inappropriate plan of fighting along the c file. White's bishop is clearly his worse position in this position and I'm not sure what fooled you into thinking otherwise.
I liked the first answer better.
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08-04-2009 , 07:30 AM
its a free piece! overthink itt
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08-05-2009 , 03:46 PM
Play d4 and pump the fist, as they say in poker. The important thing to understand is that being up a piece is not like being up a pawn, where it is pretty easy to have adequate compensation. Compensation for a piece would have to be something like they have a mating attack or are immediately promoting a pawn, something very unusual. That's not the case here - d4 wins easily.
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