It's pretty obvious that black's plan should be to develop the kingside pieces and expand on the queenside, but what is the best way to go about that? First I think I need to look at things from white's perspective.

What did white do last move, and what does white want in the position? Well, if I was white I'd be struggling for a plan. He has more central and kingside space, but with the queens off the board, I don't see much of a way to attack with it. I'd probably try to move the c3 knight and bolster d4 with the move c3, so that after black plays ...c5 I'd be able to recapture with a pawn and also challenge the c-file. That could be wrong, but if I was white that's what I'd do. So what was the idea behind white's last move? Obviously he wants to develop and likely castle (maybe not castle?), but why put the knight on e2 instead of f3? I'm trying to figure that out, but I bet he wants to be able to play Ng3 in the event black plays Nf5.

Now, what should black do? As I mentioned earlier, queenside expansion is the obvious idea, as is untangling the kingside. What's the best move order and piece arrangement to achieve this? Let's see. I want to play 10...c5, but right now I don't like giving his knight the b5 square. After something like 10...c5 11.Nb5, black is having some difficulties developing with the weakness of the d6 square. Plus, white can play the knight back to a3 at some point which allows c3 to strengthen the center, or white can play c4 to mix things up and get some play there. I don't like that, so I think 10...c5 might be too early. Plus, the queenside expansion can't be prevented, so there's no need to rush it too badly.

I'm intrigued by 10...Nb4. Black has to stop the fork threat and protect the pawn, say 11.Rc1, then 11...c5. If white tries 12.Nb5, then black has 12...Kd7 followed by kicking the knight back with a6 next move and black has some central pressure.

Black can also try something slower like 10...Ne7, followed by seeing how white reacts. I've seen some plans for black in other advance variation lines with a slow queenside buildup with ...b6, ...Rc8, and only then ...c5. The idea is that ...c5 isn't getting stopped, so might as well position your pieces as best you can before doing so.

After calculating a bit and doing something thinking, I'm going with 10...Ne7. If white just castles, then I'm playing 11...Nf5 and that piece looks beautiful. If white plays 11.Ng3 to defend the f5 square, then that knight isn't particularly well placed and the queenside play rolls on. And if black takes the knight with 11.Bxe7, then white has helped black develop and can play ...c5 very quickly.

Sorry for the ultra long post, just getting all my thoughts out. If y'all couldn't tell, I'm having trouble deciding on a plan. Good thing this isn't a G/30

definitely agree, White has nothing going for him in this position. Nominally he has a slight space and development advantage, but nothing to do with them.

Not a ton to say. Still think white is slightly better because of better-placed pieces and more space. Black has a clearer plan with queenside pushes, but as soon as he plays c5, b5 becomes an ugly square for him.

I outlined most of my thoughts in the prior post, but I like the knight coming to the f5 square. It puts the piece on a good square and opens the bishop's diagonal. My only reservation is that the only active plan I see for white in the position is an f3, g4 type idea, and putting the knight on f5 seems to walk right into that. But I think tactically black can hold it together after something like 12.f3 Be7 13.g4 hxg4 14.Nxh4 and the knight can retreat to g6 to protect the rook if necessary. Everything should be fine there.

I'm curious to see how this game develops. It probably seems slow to most, but I really do enjoy games like this. I think there's a lot to be learned by playing with queens off the board.

White doesn't have much going for him if he doesn't trade/force away the f5 knight, so Rh3 would be my move here.

I would like to hear what black should expect from white here. I mean like the plan of manuvering my bishop bb4-ba5-bb6 with an intermediate b5 so that my set up would be a kinght on a6 -b5/c6/d5 pawn chain and a bishop on b6 and ideally get my arook facing the king on the c-file. But there are a few moves obviously to get that setup.
Depending upon what he does next I think the move order might be 12.......bb4 13.na4 b5! 14.nc5nxc515.dxc5 Bxc5 and black has smashed white's centre
or if not Na4 then what square nb1??
if not na4 but 13.a3 ba5 and we are well on our way to getting b5 bb6 setup pressuring d5 without what white expects c5 we can strengthen the pressure on the centre prior to the push.

Which leads me to believe maybe white needs a3 immediately.
So maybe I do not get my setup but I hope you can see the good plans I can see for black.

Black has to be super careful about exchanging that dark bishop. Right now white is struggling but if black's dark bishop leaves the board then his dark squares turn into amazing targets for white.

I like the Ng3. 1. Ng3 g6 2. Nxf5 gxf5 just leaves black's dark squares looking pitiful so I think it forces a decision and on Nxg3 we can start getting play on the f pawn which looks oddly annoying to cover. We also will then have an uncontested g4 as a break some time in the distant future.

i also like Ng3 for white, but i don't understand the need for g6 and gxf5. Surely g6 isn't necessary yet and exf5 looks like the much sounder recapture, opening up a nice spot for the Na6 or the king.
1. Ng3 Nc7 2. Nxf5 exf5 3. Rh3 Be7 4. Rf3 g6 looks comfortable for black. I don't see an immediate way of invading those dark squares.

I think exf5 in any line is going to be unfavorable for black simply because black's most natural play is going to involve c5. But after exf5 c5 becomes very difficult to play because of the resultant weakness on d5. e6 is a pretty square, but I don't see what black's plan beyond aesthetics is after that!

well i think the fight for a black advantage is over after the premature Ne7-f5 maneuvre. IMO he should have left the knight on g8 and got on with Nc7 and c5 or played Nh6 and left the knight there for the time being.

After exf5 he can still go for f6 to try and nibble away at white's pawn chain. It's not that i'm in love with the resulting structure, it's just that your Ng3 move seems surprisingly awkward to meet otherwise.

Ng3 Ng3 fg Be7 Be7 Ke7 looks pretty bad for White. Black will play f6 before White starts anything on the f-file.

You Know Who's idea of Rh3 looks better. As a reply I was looking at Nb8 with the idea of a6 and c5. Basically Black has a great position.

i didn't intend to play 3. Bxe7 but 3. Rdf1 if we let our structure become ruined, we could as well do it properly...

Ok this is interesting. But maybe Black doesn't need to exchange on g5, Rf8 is an option to threaten f6.

Okay. I like Ng3 just fine for white. Nxg3/fxg3 looks structurally good for black, but I think he'll find himself behind on tempi and without good places for his pieces to go.

Other options?

Well, something else could cover g3 first so I don't have to accept the bad pawn structure.

Bf4 seems kind of interesting to me. Rh3 would also do it, and I can't deny that it looks kind of nice now that I look at it. I think I need to put more thought into this move than I'd intended.

The hard part is that black has a ton of options, so I can't just brute force calculate this, I have to trust my evaluation skills, which frequently suck.

Okay, what is black threatening that I'd have to deal with immediately? What if it were black's move?

c5 is still answered by Nb5 and looks pretty ugly for black. I don't think I've had this exact position before, but tons of similar ones where a premature c5 is a sucker hole for black.

Be7? Doesn't seem that scary. I think I'd just ignore it. His DSB still doesn't have a long-term home and even though it's theoretically a great piece, I don't think practically it has a lot to do in this game at the moment. If he wants to take on g5, I'll let him and put an epic bind on the kingside dark squares. 12. something Be7 13. something f6 is kind of awkward, but it looks like trading pawns on f6 and retreating the bishop to f4 is solid and leaves black with all kinds of backward pawns.

Anything on b4 just gets answered by an immediate a3.

I'm having a lot of trouble finding good moves for black, which is why I like this variation for white so much. It looks a lot more pleasant for black than it actually is in practice.

Well, since black can't do anything to me right away, I guess I don't need to play Ng3 right away without prepping it.

I like Bf4 better than Rh3, mostly because I think I can leave Rh3 in reserve for later when it may have more oomph. No need to start shuffling rooks around until the pawn breaks become more clear.

At this end of this game, I'm going to look either brilliant or stupid for putting so much faith in my experience with this position. "It looks bad, but it's actually good" is kind of a weird thing to keep saying.

I don't get it. What does this move do?

Lures him into the 0-0-0 trap obv. Rh3 seems like the way better version of this plan (Ng3 without getting the f-pawns doubled) to me.

12....Bb4 13. a3 Ba5 14 Ng3 Ne7

Why do you want to misplace your Bishop? Just 12....Be7 is simple and good.

I'm sort of freaked out. I played what I thought was a natural move (11...Nf5) and now there is nearly a page of comments from some strong players. Greaaaaaaat. Never a good sign. Anyway, onto the game...

Let's look at white's move first. I'm not entirely sure about 12.Bf4. I'm assuming white's idea is to play 13.Ng3 and challenge the f5 knight, planning to recapture with the bishop to avoid doubled pawns. I understand the idea of challenging the f5 knight, but it seems like 12.Rh3 would have been a better way to do so. After looking at the position for a while, I'm not sure I would capture white's knight on g3 even if it messed up the pawn structure. Black would have a backward f-pawn on an open file which would tie black down and make black's queenside play tougher.

Now for black's ideas. It's certainly time to get things going on the kingside, but after 12.Bf4 I'm considering 12...Be7. It threatens white's h-pawn, and of course 13.g3 pretty much refutes white's kingside ideas. So how else to deal with the threat to win the pawn? White can try 13.Ng3 anyway and it looks like that deals with the threat because of 13...Nxh4 14.Nxh5 and the resulting variations, unless I'm miscalculating something (which is very possible).

With that said, black needs to continue with his queenside play. The way to get that started looks to be with 12...Nc7 to cover the b5 square and to get the knight into the game. Then I'll start pushing pawns and gaining space. On a related note, I actually like the knight from c7 because of white's knight on g3. If white does play 13.Ng3 I might let white capture on f5 and play 13...exf5. Black can defend the f-pawn anytime with ...g6 and can put the knight on e6 from where it covers some good dark squares, and supports c5. I'm a bit worried about d5 becoming weak because ...c5 is my only real play here, but if I can put a rook behind the d-pawn and play ...b6 before ...c5, I won't have to worry about isolating the d-pawn. I'll have to see how the game develops, but that's my tentative plan. Hope it works out. I'm curious to see what white does here.

I think Nc7 is the wrong idea. A better route for the Knight is Nb8, then play a6 followed by c5, and the Knight can come to d7 or c6.

But I think it's better to start with Be7 followed by 0-0. I don't see why Tex is worried about Be7 Ng3 Nxh4 Nxh5 - after Rxh5 g3 Kd7 gxh4 Bxh4 Black is just a pawn up as far as I can see.

Nc7 just seems wrong to me. The knight doesn't belong on that square. Any future I can see it having just involves it going back to a6 at some point.

I kind of regret Bf4 now. I think I psyched myself out and didn't think through the main idea, which was to protect g3 after a trade. But now it's clear that the bishop doesn't belong on g3 but the rook might have. Oh well, it's a race to see who can make their pieces the most awkward the fastest.