I don't know where this thread will go, but I want to talk about the Vienna opening a little (1. e4 e5 2. Nc3). Even though the knight development doesn't threaten anything and it all looks a bit more passive than the normal 2. Nf3 lines, it can be very exciting. One player, Weaver Adams, thought it to be winning for black: Santasiere vs W Adams, 1946

"(Santasiere) 'I had White in against Weaver W. Adams in the U.S. Open Championship in 1946. Weaver had given a lifetime analyzing, perfecting and selling (with his heart) the Vienna Opening; and his preaching had fallen, in my case,on ears which were not deaf (one is); and on a rare occasion I loved to try that opening. So there we were in Pittsburgh, and I played 1.e4 and he played at once confidently 1. ...e5, expecting some such silly thing as the Ruy Lopez (which he had analyzed as a win for *Black*) or (God forbid) the King's Gambit. But, on a sudden impulse, it seemed to me that I would never again have an opportunity to find out the best defense to the Vienna, for surely the arch-priest would know! So I played 2.Nc3. Weaver rose from his chair a bit, turned it around to face the window, sat, and looked out of the window for a half hour. When he resumed the game, his defense was inferior, and by the ninth move he resigned, and said to me with a smile 'You know, San, I can't play against the Vienna!''"

I played it in a Malkovich game: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/14...s-game-951626/
and besides the King's Gambit type line played there, I mentioned the Frankenstein-Dracula. I actually got an opportunity to play it on gameknot (so we had days for each move, 3 I think): http://www.chessvideos.tv/chess-game...r.php?id=50687

This was easier than most games in this opening because black traded off queens early and traded off a few pieces, which greatly reduced his attacking potential, leaving me up the exchange.

But the game that really prompted this thread is this one (also on gameknot, with 7 days per move): http://www.chessvideos.tv/chess-game...r.php?id=50688

I got to sacrifice a rook! More analysis of the variation (1. e4 e5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. f4 d6 5. d3 Ng4 6. f5 Nf2) can be found on chesspub: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb...1099947293/all

edit: diagram to get you interested


Sure, white is not better in these lines, but the lines are very sharp and it's easy for either side to go wrong. For instance, in my last game, black played 10...Bf2+ instead of 10...c6 (which still would have led to a material imbalance, leading to a fun game). No one on the higher levels of chess seem to play the Vienna, so my guess is that it's just a boring draw once you reach a level that stops making such mistakes.

So, anyone else play the Vienna, or have some good line they like against it, or exciting tales in a Vienna adventure, or comments on these games? Or tell me to stop making threads?...

*shudder*

The memory still haunts me

sorry, I really like that line, though!

Speaking of which, we need some more active Malkovich games.

Wasn't Allen C supposed to play one? I would like to see that.

(btw, I'm glad this thread is getting some activity... )

What is blacks defense against Qh5? I haven't played the Vienna in years but this looks like a transposition from the Bishop's opening (that I also haven't played in years) and iirc white is winning.

Well, it starts with 7...g6, but then there are numerous lines from there (all my knowledge comes from that chesspub link). White can play 8. fxg6 or go straight away into 8. Qh6 (I favor the pawn trade first because it looks to me to make the queen stronger when it gets to g7 since it can keep the black king from d7 instead of being blocked in by the e7 pawn). After 8. fxg6 fxg6 9. Qh6 Nxh1 10. Nd5 c6, the chesspub people gave these 2 lines:

"11.Qg7 cxd5 12.Qxh8 Kd7 13.Qxh7+ Qe7 14.Qxe7+ Kxe7 15.Bg5+ Ke8 16.Bd5 and black seems fine after 16...Nc6 (or even 16...Bg1 17.Kd2 Bb6 maybe 16...Nf2 is playable) 17.Nf3 Nb4 (Nf2!? or Bg4!?) 18.Ke2 Nd5 19.ed5 e4 20.de4 (20.Rh1!? ef3 21.Kf3) Nf2 and black seems far from lost in these lines"

and, with some editing for clarity, 11.Bg5 Qxg5 12.Qxg5 cxd5 13.Bxd5 Nc6 14.Nf3 white does have an active Queen although after 14...Rf8 15.c3 or Qh6 it is unclear

So it seems both lines are unclear, and if memory serves me right, both lead to a material imbalance (which I like!). Is it really not quite so unclear, or is there better somewhere?

No need to apologize, it's not YOU who played f6, lol.

stop making threads.

Look into 8.Qh6 Nxh1 9.Bg5 f6. 10.fxg6 is a white win if you know your lines.

A cool one is 10...fxg5. 11.g7 Kd7 12.Qd6 Kc6. 13Qd5 Ke7 14. Qf7 Kc6 15. Bb5 Kb6 16. Be8

iirc all lines wins for white after 8. Qh6

I'm working on something else at the moment, but the chesspub people are suggesting 8. Qh6 Kd7 instead of 8...Nxh1.

hmm, is that just a forced draw then?

3 years later, I'm still playing the Vienna. I'm currently playing this game on chess.com: http://www.chess.com/echess/game?id=100807976 (please, no comments that can influence how I play from here, that would be cheating!). My opponent is rated about 100 points higher than I am, but that doesn't scare me from playing this line:

1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.f4 exf4 4.d4 Qh4+ 5.Ke2 g5 6.Nf3 Qh5 7.Nd5 Kd8 8.Kf2 g4



8...g4 seems to be a novelty. This is actually my first time playing into the line before the novelty, but while I don't have direct experience with these lines, I'm a little wary of a novelty in such an old opening. What do you want to play?

You won't be a total Vienna player until you start responding to 1. e4 Nf6 by 2. Nc3 (the Spielmann Gambit - 2... d5 3. e5 Nfd7 4. e6 - sounds fun ; 2... e5 is a transposition to the Vienna, which hardcore Alekhine players however don't choose).

Surely the last response in this thread has it correct. http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/ches...1099947293/all

Don't exchange pawns first; the immediate 8: Qh6 is best.

Our threat is Bg5. So for example if black takes our rook:

8: Qh6 Nxh1
9: Bg5 Qxg5 and we win the exchange immediately

Otherwise

8: Qh6 Nxh1
9: Bg5 Qd7
10: Nc3-d5 costs black a queen and more.


After:
8: Qh6 Kd7
9: Na4 Nxh1

Interesting gambit, I hadn't seen it before. Not sure I'd be comfortable yet using it as it gives away a pawn and the center, but could be a fun option.

Well chesspub is stupid and has the posts going backwards, so the last response is really the first post. But it seems you may be correct in that 8. Qh6 Kd7 9. Na4 is mentioned there as good for white and then never actually gets addressed that I can tell. At low ply, my computer likes the resulting position for white after being led through the line several moves. I'm going to have to play through these lines and get a better feel for them.

I've noticed that you've finished the game, so I went ahead and fed it to an engine. You've most likely done it yourself, but fwiw, Stockfish's clear 10th move recommendation is

I'm going to give this thread a thorough read at some point. The Vienna is something I've considered using as a surprise weapon in rapid chess. I'll dig into it...