umm thanks for the D-, but i was simply posting my opinion, not asking to be graded on a letter scale... 5th grade was years ago. how about you be more constructive than an elementary teacher, and instead of exing everything off with "NO" how about you elaborate?

the only thing you ellaborated about you are wrong- Poker and chess bots have been around way longer than 5 years, its just that poker bots haven't always been as readily available, and you can't really buy a chess-bot that will win you games, all you can do is develop one with a sick team of geniuses and such.

lazy critique by you on my first post! shame!

\

still lame.. YES. I see you are trying to get me all worked-up so i tilt my money later in the cash games? I'm right your wrong. YES YES YES.

I rate your critique an F..... an F U!

2h in detention room for foul-mouth

wasnt foul mouthed, your just soft and took offense.

go cry on pocket fives, LOL

I might be interpreting 'complicated' wrongly for this thread, but I take it to mean requiring IQ/problem solving talent, rather than a volume of knowledge.

I wouldn't consider learning every entry in a phone book to be complicated, but it would probably be a lot harder and take a lot longer than learning to play poker well.

I'm surprised that people consider the game-space of poker to be smaller than chess. Pre-flop HU NLHE has 28,561 range vs range equities to consider, if we allow stack sizes of 1 raise, that round can go; fold; call-check; call-raise-fold; call-raise-call; raise-fold;raise-call; so that's 200k situations. The flatting spots are then complicated by 20,000 flops giving another 570,000,000 ranges to consider. And that's just HU HE with 1 bet left and no turn or river, and its an exponential increase for ~50 turn cards (x^2 new ranges), ~50 river cards (y^2 new ranges) and each possible combination of checks, bets, raises and folds, for each street.


I think chess is more like the phone book, and I've read that chess experts say effort is more important (after a moderate point) than IQ, so I'm choosing poker for complexity. I think poker will be harder to solve.

However, I think that people's heuristic techniques probably do much better at poker. I also think that everyone plays so far from 'solved' that understanding their personal mistakes can make someone a poker expert without even going near an optimal approach to the entire game-space, or even understanding that one might exist. (We can see this in the discussion of Rush)

So I think poker is intrinsically more complicated, but pragmatic poker play is less complicated (and might always be).

he's a liar if he thinks that planning your moves ahead makes the game more complicated. GMs cant think more than 10 moves ahead, and a skilled amatuer cant think more than 4-5

I want to rephrase in the style of a cliche:

"It's because poker is intrinsically so much more complicated than chess, that even the best players (and computers) in the world have to approach it in a much less complicated way."

Seems like weather-forecasting might be an extreme example of this.

where do these people suddenly come from that compare chess with a phone book and think GMs cannot calculate 10 moves? Please go back to the µNL Forums, tyvm

imo poker is more complex that chess.

chess is like 10^120
FLT HU is like 10^18

so chess is more complex than FLT HU.

however NLT FR is a lot more complex i think. might be wrong by a couple of magnitudes, please do the math but my gut feeling says poker is more complex.

man, i just saw this tread lol.....and i cant believe my eyes wow.....

anyone saying poker is more complex, i bet anything ,
U ( players thinking poker is more complex) dont even know the simple bridge concept in rook ending in chess, right....
and this its like the ubber basic known theorie in chess for 1 piece ending,and u have 4 more piece and this is only endings , u get my drift ?

now a quote wich is so much dead funnny lol...



carded :Now, switch out a poker player midway through a hand a replace him with another on the internet.

To make the correct play the player would have to know what happened in previous betting rounders.

How the opponent has played in the session leading up to the hand.




now me : DUCY why this is totallly false, here it is :

even if i dont know the hystory of the player, i only have 3 choices to make the right decision.

do i know the guy is a huge bluffer or not ?

lets say i dont , i still can make the right decision between 3 choice, god !

and even if my analysis was wrong, i still can win, i mean wtf ...


btw ure so much wrong about chess as welll, showing ure probably at best a 1400 rating player.

in each position of chess theirs more then one correct move base on :
- style of play ( ...yes their is loose aggressif player like TAL and totally tight passif players like petrossian )
- ure opponent ( if his goood in tactics and weak on position concept, why open up the game )
- time left in the game ( if the guy got 5 min left to play and u have 1 hour, ure chance are much better, even more if u use exploitive strategy wich is explain below for chess )
- etc.

u see , one move would be great vs 1 player and bad vs another in chess , like in poker,
- optimum strategy ( using the best move on board no matter what your opponent ( capablanca was like that, he juts didnt care ) and
- exploitive stratgey ( lasker was reknonw for this, playing bad position but using a position he knew he could play better than his opponent )

u will never see a decent chess player ( please..nothing below 2000 ratings ok !) saying poker is more complex.

lets see, lets say durr is for now one of the best, how long has he been playing ? 5 years ?

ok, now take anyone...and i say anyone in the world and give them 5 years, they will never even reach a level near the top 100 players in the world, forget it !!

thats probably the best way to demonstrate it

ps: im pretty 100 % sure attaining top 5% population chess skill is a lot harder than in poker .

example : to make 1 thing clear (showing btw,micvanbob doesnt know much...variance is higher in limit than in NL for your info MIC),
lets take limit poker.....just buy SSHE , read it trough and u will beat most low limit game online or live anywhewre in the world, gl finding one book for chess that accomplished that !

i can even say 10 books for chess and dont even think about it anyway....

But the combinations, the number of flops!!! Say you have AA on the turn and the board is AQ76 rainbow, now the next card could either be the 2s or the 2h. Don't you see the complexity this introduces? Screw fish like Kasparov, Tal etc and bow to teh Durr. An the 102 orders of magnitude FR NL has.

i dunno if your trolling noir but u know the possiblities of chess moves, and this is why no computer will probbaly never be able to crack it up...

this is a know trivia fact know by any chess players :

theirs more chess move possible then their atoms in the universe, not 1 galaxies but universe...

btw , in poker u can reach a lot of winning position, in chess u never will be vs any pro chess


im pretty sure of this, if in anyway possible, u could of give a price money of like 20$millions for any top 30 chess players in the world to give him like 2 or 3 years to attain the skill of a top poker pro, theyb will all attain it easylly.

nevermind the other way around, give even 100 million to a poker pro, they will never be able to achieve in 2 or 3 years the skill of a chess pro

i heard ledere and harrington were goood, but i read if im correct its like 2300 max....i mean yes, its good but not even close to be the weakest of the Grand master, barely IM level i mean comon....

i think i got it guys !!!!!!!!!


why chess is more complex , ok !!!

do u ALL agree , the brain has some pic at different ages ?

pass 50, i think we all agree , our brain capacities has plummel ( they even say, even has soon has 40 u already pass your pic brain power) .

any reason u think in chess, no player are close to the top pass, 50 years old but in poker their no limit age ? doyle bruson, etc...)

trust me, any poker player at 50 can still do great things on regular basis, nvm in chess, the power demand of the brain to play high level of chess is too great !!! and thats a fact ! they migh have some flashes of genius but at 50+, chess player cant sustain top high quality games for a significant period of time

just on that basis alone it should be clearly easy to see chess is more complxe imo

i'm just trolling the trolls who think poker is more complex without even knowing what a rook ending is, let alone the Lucena maneuvre

Your strategy is a choice to continue with one of hundreds of ranges on that turn card, not one hand, and each could be matched against one of hundreds of villain's ranges. If we asked you how you play there, and you say "bet AA", that's not a strategy, or if it is then it wouldn't make any money. You also need to figure out how often you have got there and what you are doing with all of your value hands and all of your air, on each of the different turn cards. Not only that, but since you plan to get to that turn with a particular range, you need to know whether that range is, on average, exploitable on all the other turns. And if you solved AQ7r given your opening range assumptions, you need to be able to calculate whether that range is the BEST range to get to flops with, given all the possible flops, turns and rivers, all the possible villain's response, and the possibility that you could have got it in preflop instead.

Pointing out that the difference between a specific two points of the poker game-space is negligible doesn't really matter, its like pointing out that since two suicidal chess moves are both suicidal it doesn't really add complexity.

alex-db: your poker stuff is quite sensible imho but the fact that you do not obviously know a lot about chess (chess is like a phonebook is equivalent to "poker is all luck lolz") hurts your street cred pretty bad

This gets the gold medal for most ridiculous analysis of chess on twoplustwo ever. Do you even know the rules of the game dude? Holy lolz.

I'll tell you this much: ****ing bullet chess is way more tilting than poker.

that's funny- bullet is my anti tilt.

Comparing the complexity of chess to poker is like comparing a mercedez to a toy car. Chess is simply more complicated(it does not compare). There is a reason why thousand of thousand books have been written about chess. On king pawn endgame alone thousand of pages book can be written. I guess people who think poker is more complex does not even know chess concepts like zugwang, lucena position, prophylaxis, etc. I bet no one here can do a mate of bishop and knight against a lone king, many players who played for many years, can’t even learn this thing, and this ending is a basic one, now imagine the more complex rook endgame. Where are only taking about endgame(there are many chess endgames), how about opening, thousand page alone can be written on its single variation of a Sicilian defense, and there are many chess defense and opening, there are also chess positional concepts.

Sorry but people who thinks poker is more complicated are novice at chess (below 1400 FIDE rating). Those who think poker is more complex, can you even mate with the very basic knight and bishop against the lone king? I learned poker for a few minutes and I already beat players who play this for years. In chess this is impossible (there are no element of luck in chess). For those who says poker is more complicated, read Dvoretsky chess books, you will realize yes chess is complex compare to poker, it does not even compare.

In grandmaster chess, there is a single game that can last for 6 hours and more. And after the game there is an analysis on the game that sometimes could take lot of years to determine the correct strategy. For example in Capablanca’s (former world champion) 1924 match against Tartakower, even today there game is analyze to determine the exact correct moves to play.

Now can you say the same thing with poker that you will analyze it for years to know why you lose. LOL, sorry it does not even compare.

wow i had forgotten how entertaining this thread was/is

Ready to put your money where your mouth is?

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