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A chess valuation problem A chess valuation problem

03-22-2009 , 10:44 AM
Hey guys, another position where it's not a tactical insta-win, but a pretty cool position anyway:



It's Black to move. What's his best move?

I failed this quiz because I immediately saw two good moves for Black, but they were not so great.

Hints in spoilers

Spoiler:
1. Who has the advantage?

Spoiler:
2. Is it a dynamic or static advantage?

Spoiler:
3. What is White's short-term plan?

Spoiler:
4. How will he achieve this plan?

Spoiler:
5. Given 2 and 4, what should Black do?
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03-22-2009 , 07:21 PM
My first impression was that I really dislike Black's position. White already has more space in the center and I'd be worried he would play Rd1, d6 and e5. Though, maybe White would be over-extending and Black could break up the pawn center completely with ...f6.

So, my immediate consideration for Black was to play ...e5 and ...d6 to give him a little more breathing room. However, I don't like the resulting position much. White will have Ng2-e3-f5 hitting Black's backwards d-pawn. White can also get his bishop on the a3-f8 diagonal to attack the pawn and force Black to use his pieces defensively.

Playing ...ed and opening up the position seems wrong. Though both sides are underdeveloped.

Black needs to resolve the central pawn structure in a favorable way.


So, after typing that slowly while eating, an idea occured to me. ...e5 followed as quickly as possible by ...f5 undermining White's pawn center, opening up the f-file for Black's rook and using the attacks on White's knight and Queen as tempo-gainers seems to be the right plan for Black to gain attacking chances.
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03-23-2009 , 03:46 AM
Dynasty, you have gotten one thing here which is that the static (i.e. long term) advantages lie with White. If Black does nothing, White can drive back the queen, take the c-file, and bust things up in the center.

I think that Black has dynamic (short term) advantages, though! And textbooks teach that to take advantage of a dynamic position, Black has to play energetically.

Spoiler:
This means that natural, slow moves, like Rac8 or Bf6, are failboats
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03-23-2009 , 11:03 AM
Neat and tough position!

Spoiler:

I honestly just have no clue what to do in this position so I'll just go through your spoilers and ramble on:

1. I think white is certainly better here. The seemingly silly move e5 already looks quite annoying for black, not only threatening to claim more central space - but the dark squares around black's king are a little loose and taking control of f6 even opens up some potential for kingside pressure. And it also creates lots of central targets as well.

And white has a ton of possibilities as well as space and better pieces.

2. Silman huh? I'd say both. White's pieces are more active which is dynamic, the spacial advantage is static.

3. My problem is I see too many plans for white here. He has the possibility of playing on every part of the board. He has possibilities of kingside, queenside and central play!

4. Black needs to act fast for sure or he's going to get crushed soon. I don't like e5 as after Nd3/Be3/Rc1 black is getting suffocated. Nc5 just provokes the e5 push that I was already eyeing for white.

Okay, after looking for a little longer Bg5 ideas seem strong. Black gets rid of white's pieces in exchange for a rather lame piece, starts alleviating the cramping problems due to lack of space and his knight has the potential to become very strong very fast as well as gaining the ability to counter attack hard against white's center. So it's just a matter of preparing something as after the immediate Bg5 Nd3 looks quite good for white.

Ok, took a break, drink a few beers and I'm back now. Looking at this board with fresh, albeit drunken, eyes e5 seems obviously best. Earlier I missed the cute line of e5 Nd3 Nc5! Now Nxe5 Bf6 seems quite nice for black, and Nxc5 Bxc5 is obviously great for black. So since position seems unpleasant for white after Nd3, e5 seems clearly best.
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03-23-2009 , 11:35 AM
Hey man, pretty sweet ideas and you are on the right track! I have not read any Silman books but I read Winning Chess Strategies which was by Seirawan and Silman so I guess Silman mainly wrote it and Seirawan lent his name to it or something

One thing both of you missed though, black's major dynamic advantage:

Spoiler:
Black's queen is screwing up White's queenside development something fierce. He can't move his bishop or connect his rooks until he takes care of the b-pawn, and his e-pawn is attacked by the queen, too.

Basically that queen is a monster now. But it might not be in a few more moves.
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03-23-2009 , 12:31 PM
Spoiler:
Keeping white's queenside blocked up was one of the ideas behind e5, since Nd3/etc is one of the best ways for white to reorganize his queenside, and my idea of e5 with Nc5 seems to bust that. I'm quite curious what his recommendation is now!
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03-23-2009 , 12:33 PM
Spoiler:
As an aside, that was also one of the points of Bg5 stuff
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03-23-2009 , 01:03 PM
Ok here is the answer, the game is Lilienthal - Keres, Moscow 1941

Spoiler:
in the game, play continued
... e5?
Nd3 f6
Ne1


Now White can complete his development, because the semi-closed center means that development is not so critical.


White's plan, if unopposed, is to trade the annoying queen away with Qd3, or at least force it to move or be replaced with a rook. Therefore:

... Nc5! prevents Qd3 and also forces white to defend the e-pawn.

A possible continuation would be
... Nc5
Re1 e5
Nh5 f5

With the active center, black takes advantage of white's undeveloped queenside.
or
... Nc5
e5 d6

Now the center is busted open which benefits black.


(Well that was the answer, I would have played ... Bf6, Qd3 Rac8 and missed that lol
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03-23-2009 , 01:46 PM
There's something strange here.

Spoiler:

After Nc5, like I mentioned the simple e5 push seems incredibly good for white. I just double checked it with a computer and it is perfectly sound. I doubt a strong player would miss a move like e5 since it's pretty much the first candidate move for white imo.. so I'm not sure what's up?

My idea of e5 with Nc5! accomplishes the exact same things, but works!
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03-23-2009 , 06:52 PM
It's silly to have nearly an entire thread in spoiler tags.

When people open a thread, they know the position is going to be discussed.
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03-23-2009 , 10:22 PM
Dynasty - I think maybe the first 5 posts or so should be in spoilers? That way you don't accidentally read the solution when scrolling down.

Dire - I chickened out and used a computer to look at these positions. This is because they are pretty complex and I don't have the skill to look at all the variations at the moment. I am sorry about this

After ...Nc5, e5 d6. It says -0.32 which is pretty cool!

After ...e5, Nd3 Nc5, Nxe5 Bf6 it says 0.11 which is better for white. I think it's because it it helps white to unblock the queenside and so he can complete his development.

After ...Bf6, Qd3 Qxd3, it says -0.26 which is almost as good as ...Nc5.

You know what, computers suck at this!! Well, I still think that I would prefer to play the ...Nc5, e5 d6 position rather than the ...e5, Nd3 Nc5, Nxe5 Bf6 as black. I guess the computers didn't help out very much
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03-24-2009 , 05:30 AM
My main problem here is that he gives a horrible variation for white, including a flat out blunder (Nh5????), as justification for his choice. e5 is the 'obvious' response to Nc5 and it's completely unclear how black has accomplished anything as the variations after d6 are quite complex, but it leads to alot of positions where black has an isolated pawn and a knight versus bishop endgame.

Whereas the complications after e5 Nd3 Nc5 are also very interesting and far from clear, and labeling 1. .. e5 with a ? just reeks of laziness. Although I will at least agree that playing e5 with the plan of following it up with f6 seems like a very superficial idea.

And yeah, I think computers are pretty useless in positions like these unless you give them massive amounts of time per move. Their main use is just a blunder checker especially when you have a habit of playing provocative moves. But when their evaluations are within tenths of a point of each other in a strategic position, it means nothing.
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03-24-2009 , 05:53 AM
I agree the position is unclear

Well you totally got the important points which is Nc5 is needed to maintain black's initiative! And I think it's more important to focus on Nc5 and e5 as opposed to routine developing moves.
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03-24-2009 , 12:50 PM
Something that intrigues me here is that none of us are even remotely close to Keres' ability, but we can all see that the idea of e5/f6 is almost certainly a rather poor one given the context of "analyze this position and figure out a move based on the respective plans of each side." Which is something so trivial that it was undoubtedly embedded far into Keres' subconscious, yet somehow he ended up throwing out e5/f6. I sure would love to know what he was thinking.

The source game certainly doesn't explain it. His knight ended up stranded out on a6 until it later retreated to b8, where it remained until engaging on an ill fated voyage at the late stages of the game just prior to his resignation.
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