Open Side Menu Go to the Top
Register
*** Chess Low Content Thread *** *** Chess Low Content Thread ***

09-08-2022 , 12:48 PM
Good article:

https://en.chessbase.com/post/the-ca...niemann-affair

and the TL;DR:

Quote:
While the debate on right or wrong, guilty or not guilty, has been raging for days now, two things remain quite missing. One is a proper declaration and position by Magnus Carlsen. He started this affair and massive storm in the chess world, not to mention the legions attacking Niemann, and as a result should own up to his words and make his position clear. It was not merely a powerful condemnation of a young player on the rise, but his withdrawal from the tournament is an unprecedented act that should be justified.

The second and most obvious missing piece here is any shred of genuine evidence to condemn Hans Niemann. The fact is that while some pointed out Hans Niemann's excellent play and win against Magnus Carlsen as a source of suspicion, more significant was the poor quality of the World Champion's play against Hans. As a colleague was quick to point out, "with those mistakes any 2700 would have beaten Carlsen." In other words, Magnus lost the game through his own doing, and not as a result of god-like moves unleashed by his opponent.
*** Chess Low Content Thread *** Quote
09-08-2022 , 10:38 PM
If you're Magnus and you don't think he cheated you come out a day later or two and say "hey I've been in a bad headspace I apologize for my abrupt exit from a prestigious tournament yadda yadda my Twitter comment was taken way out of context I don't believe Hans cheated blah blah"

The fact that none of this happened makes it seem like things are still going on behind the scenes. Has anyone even seen Magnus? Maybe he's on the cocaine bender I wish I was on right now. I mean there's zero way he hasn't talked to Rex himself and a billion other higher ups about the situation already.

Maybe I should start an anal beads cheating venture
*** Chess Low Content Thread *** Quote
09-08-2022 , 10:40 PM
But Hans was chewing gum and then swallowed it! Clear evidence.

(**** who knows maybe it is)
*** Chess Low Content Thread *** Quote
09-09-2022 , 01:12 AM
*** Chess Low Content Thread *** Quote
09-09-2022 , 05:29 AM
Not a defense of Carlsen, but everybody talking about what he must/should/has to do must not have been paying much attention in the past.

Carlsen does what he wants to - he's not pressured by anyone saying "it demands an explanation!" and he's way less likely to care about loss of money and/or opportunities as a result than most others.

Pretty sure he just finds the whole situation amusing.
*** Chess Low Content Thread *** Quote
09-09-2022 , 07:09 AM
Also - chess.com calling Hans a liar (and a cheat) :

https://twitter.com/chesscom/status/...XUU09sgmC78wTA
*** Chess Low Content Thread *** Quote
09-09-2022 , 02:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MinusEV
Not a defense of Carlsen, but everybody talking about what he must/should/has to do must not have been paying much attention in the past.

Carlsen does what he wants to - he's not pressured by anyone saying "it demands an explanation!" and he's way less likely to care about loss of money and/or opportunities as a result than most others.

Pretty sure he just finds the whole situation amusing.
Normally I'd agree (cause he loves trolling) but this is a couple steps above his usual chicanery. I was really surprised at how everyone hopped on the blame train immediately though.
*** Chess Low Content Thread *** Quote
09-11-2022 , 02:14 AM
I don't think that anyone with an opinion I care about (maybe Hikaru when he was giddy as **** on his stream but I missed it) thought he was actively cheating by having moves given to him throughout. It's all been about the opening 'thievery'.

Luckily Giri's Twitter game is improving as fast as Hans OTB (not my joke)
*** Chess Low Content Thread *** Quote
09-11-2022 , 09:39 AM
I don't even know if I would consider stealing opening prep cheating - certainly not a matter for the arbiters. Secure your ****.

This is and old video but you can see what Magnus is worried about (turn on CC for English):



Quote:
There was a case where a blind chess player was caught cheating and got banned
from playing, the first time for two years and the second time for life.
But in the beginning, there was a lot of media coverage regarding his results,
and I thought it was exciting, but then I had a look at some of his matches
and I was like, wow. - What did you notice?
What you see are inhuman decisions and inhuman precision. It's easy to notice
And then, there are surprisingly many, even chess players, not necessarily in
the circles that I travel, or among the best ones, but people defended him a lot.
There was a lot of local support. And yes, it was a really nice story.
People called it a witch-hunt, and blamed it on jealousy towards him. Saying that
they refused to believe the experts, which makes me think - How often do you see such
a thing? Well, one just doesn't want to believe what the experts are saying,
we still like to believe good stories. But in this case people really let themselves
be fooled to a high degree, and refused to listen to experts saying this is not right
This does not make sense at all.
How often is it that we are fed pure nonsense.
How does it feel when you see the move? Is it a move that does not make sense
to you in the moment? - Yes, it doesn't follow a logic
that confirms to the other moves made by the same person. Which is how a strong
chess player would think. It's more like, you got a right answer, and you just
pulled that answer out of the air. You are not able to see the process behind,
and that's when you think there is something fishy going on.
Of course you need more examples to prove it, and in this case the player was invited
to take a test organized by the Norwegian Chess Federation. And I supported there
being quite a large margin in that test. Had the conclusion been that his player
strength was on 16-1700, and his per- formance level on 2-3, or 2-4. Then
I would've said that, OK, his performance was unlikely, but it's still possible.
So he could've gotten the benefit of the doubt. But the actual conclusion
of the test was that he was almost unable to play.
I wonder what these people think! And there have been multiple cases of this?
Yes, and that's the problem with chess, the people who get caught are those
who cheat in a really obvious and stupid manner.
Everybody thinks that you need to insert some mistakes during the game.
Yes, but the problem was that he was not good enough to see what would've made sense
But, had I started cheating in a clever manner, I am convinced no one would notice
I would've just needed to cheat one or two times during the match, and I would not
even need to be given moves, just the answer on which move was way better.
Or, here there is a possibility of winning and here you need to be more careful.
That is all I would need in order to be almost invincible. Which does frighten me.
Especially in online chess, you have a lot of anti-cheating efforts, but at the end
of the day, the game doesn't work if you do not trust your opponents.
That, at the end of the day, there isn't enough to earn by cheating. If someone
catches you, your career is over. As chess is so unorganized, most events are based
on invites and the invites will be non-existent.
Don't you believe a lot of people want the taste of playing the big guys, and they've
got nothing to lose cheating. - Those are the dangerous ones.
Those who are good at playing, have tried their best but not reached the top.
They are the ones with the incentives. But there have been few of those online.
Mostly, it's been established players at the top and young players leveling up.
Which haven't had these incentives. But, yeah. There is definitely a challenge in
chess with all of these people with strong incentives to cheat. And, if it's done in
in a clever way, it's hard to notice.
I'm not going to sit here and spread rumors, but it would not surprise me
at all if we've had a lot of cheaters, even in big tournaments, that have won and not been caught.
But do you know that you have played someone who cheated?
I have played random people online where I notice that they cheat. But over the
board I have never suspected anyone. But, you would have to free yourself from it.
With such a suspicion, you would have a massive psychological disadvantage.
I remember from playing chess as a child, when the computer helped me with moves
I became completely depended on it as I had no plan moving forward.
So immediately after using the help function, I was completely lost.
So you get kind of addicted to it, and lose your style of playing to cheating
Yes, you can say it that way. And those who have helped me,
especially the older ones in my team, are no longer able to play chess.
Because they are so used to working with analysis and computers. So they are good
coming with ideas and use the computer for that purpose, but when playing they
end up needing help. They are used to being guided further by the computer.
That's kind of a parallel to addiction to social media and computers in other areas,
where we stop thinking for ourselves.
*** Chess Low Content Thread *** Quote
09-19-2022 , 02:38 PM
Hans Niemann defeats Magnus Carlsen again, kind of.
*** Chess Low Content Thread *** Quote
09-19-2022 , 03:12 PM
*** Chess Low Content Thread *** Quote
09-19-2022 , 11:02 PM
Does Magnus resign against him if they play in the playoffs? The finals?

I just assumed he was playing the Queen Elizabeth II Gambit Accepted
*** Chess Low Content Thread *** Quote
09-22-2022 , 01:46 PM
Carlsen needs to elaborate or retract imo... You cant insinuate that an opponent has cheated, and just leave it hanging for the chess world and public to weigh in with no evidence that any cheating occurred.
*** Chess Low Content Thread *** Quote
09-22-2022 , 03:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by grando1.0
Does Magnus resign against him if they play in the playoffs? The finals?

I just assumed he was playing the Queen Elizabeth II Gambit Accepted
I think that gambit has been permanently declined.

Spoiler:
Too soon?
*** Chess Low Content Thread *** Quote
09-22-2022 , 03:07 PM
Magnus sort of speaks. Very cautious about specifics, but the mention of his mentor carries additional insinuations, as that trainer has also been accused of cheating online.

*** Chess Low Content Thread *** Quote
09-26-2022 , 05:49 PM
*** Chess Low Content Thread *** Quote
09-26-2022 , 07:04 PM
I don't think that statement is going to satisfy any of his critics.
*** Chess Low Content Thread *** Quote
09-26-2022 , 08:25 PM
It does raise a good point though - the guy is known to have cheated, has a cheaty coach but everyone is forced to play him (or forfeit) because he's invited to the same tournament as them?
*** Chess Low Content Thread *** Quote
09-26-2022 , 11:14 PM
If he cheated vs Magnus in St. Louis, how did he do it? Literally anal beads? An accomplice in the control room, maybe giving hand signals?

We need to see the evidence from chess.com's insinuations of extensive online cheating.
*** Chess Low Content Thread *** Quote
09-27-2022 , 11:17 AM
All the content creators have all pretty much echoed the sentiment that “the ball is in Hans’ court.” but imo it’s still on Magnus to provide some sort of more concrete proof. I am surprised Hans hasn’t been more vocal though.
*** Chess Low Content Thread *** Quote
09-27-2022 , 11:45 AM
Yeah presumption of innocence means the accused is not obligated to provide a defense to charges without evidence.
*** Chess Low Content Thread *** Quote
09-27-2022 , 12:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimM
If he cheated vs Magnus in St. Louis, how did he do it? Literally anal beads? An accomplice in the control room, maybe giving hand signals?
Magnus is a coward to release that statement with no evidence plus the weasel words that end it.

So, whomever Magnus accuses of cheating gets a scarlet letter forever now? Is that what we are saying? Is every young teen who cheated once on chess.com for no money going to be ostracized forever?

There is literally zero evidence of OTB cheating at St Louis.

Let's go over the recent list of very paranoid WC-level players: Fischer, Karpov, Korchnoi, Kasparov, Topalov, Carlsen. That's 4 WCs and 2 contenders who all believed crazy, even very very crazy things due to paranoia.

Every time Magnus loses to a guy like Hans it's going to be toilet-gate forever?

And Magnus lied in his statement, it took ~4 years for Hans to climb ~180 points, not less than two. Anytime you cherry pick the data that badly it means you really, really have no evidence.

[and I don't mean Fischer's accurate accusations of Russian collusion in the late 50s/early 60s in the Candidates.]
*** Chess Low Content Thread *** Quote
09-27-2022 , 12:24 PM
For fun I looked at Hans' results in last year's grand Swiss qualifier that Fabi won.

Hans won two, lost two and tied the rest. He drew MVL and Artemiev and lost to Aronian and Xiong. [2 W/Bs each]. He beat Sindarov.

He finished 52nd of 100. 12 lower-rated players finished higher than him including the younger Keyman who came in 5th and drew the 4 players in the top 10 he played.

So, last year he was strong enough to draw top-10 MVL [6th so in good form] and another 2700 player, with black. It's not surprising going from 18 to 19 with more study and analysis of computer prep that he would improve at a time when most elite
youth players do improve.

I mean even prime Fischer lost to Edmar Mednis, nobody's idea of an elite GM.

And Carlsen played at least two really poor moves in his endgame loss to Hans. The fact that he say he didn't want to play him, flies over anyway, loses, quits the tourney is the worst possible way to handle this: in addition to his move 2 resignation.

Smart organizers would invite Hans to every big OTB tourney, we'd find out real fast if there was some truth to these wild allegations.
*** Chess Low Content Thread *** Quote
09-27-2022 , 12:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NajdorfDefense
Magnus is a coward to release that statement with no evidence plus the weasel words that end it.
Yeah he has no evidence. Some lawyer friends' legal opinions:

Quote:
The statement was probably vetted (or even drafted and edited) by several lawyers. The goal would be to avoid litigation, particularly as there is a big business deal in the works involving Chess.com and the Play Magnus Group.

So the statement reflects Magnus's personal opinions and feelings, which can't be libelous.
Quote:
Kamsky, lawyer and GM, says it is a very very clever and lawyer-proof statement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NajdorfDefense
So, whomever Magnus accuses of cheating gets a scarlet letter forever now? Is that what we are saying? Is every young teen who cheated once on chess.com for no money going to be ostracized forever?
He's getting a lot of slack due to his position, and the unusual actions. He probably doesn't get this much slack if this repeats itself and his actions become commonplace.
*** Chess Low Content Thread *** Quote

      
m