Not sure how many fellow CK players are on here, but if there are, what do y'all think of this line?

1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5



I've been toying with the idea of giving this variation a shot because the standard 3...Bf5 stuff is pretty well known to all white players. The play for white in those lines is pretty natural as well. This 3...c5 stuff is played less, but still scores just about the same as the main line. Also, it has been played by Kramnik, Karpov, Svidler, Andreikin, Akobian, and other strong GMs, so it's certainly good.

The main thing I like is I can't imagine too many white players being booked up in this line since almost everyone, myself included, plays 3...Bf5 automatically.

Any of y'all have any personal experience playing the black side of this position?

It's obviously playable - just a matter of personal choice.

wouldn't it just transpose into an advanced caro as long as white doesn't try some c4 break?

u also get to avoid a lot of nc3, g4 lines which was kinda popular half a decade-ish ago. with 3...c5, i think c4 is really the sharpish line for white while everything else is more quiet.

Part of the draw is that if white does try to transpose back into a normal advanced Caro, then black can play Bg4 in one move as opposed to Bf5->Bg4, which often happens.

Agree completely with this. I've been looking through Chessbase quite a bit and it appears the c4 lines are the most testing. Everything else gives black a comfortable game.

I've never studied it in depth, but I always thought this was a second rate line. It's been tried on occasion by strong players, but I can't really think of any top players who have made it their main weapon against the advance. When a line is systematically avoided by 2600+ players, there's usually a good reason. It doesn't necessarily mean it's not playable, but probably Black's task is more difficult than in the regular lines.

This is basically the French Advance without e6. Black has already wasted a move by playing c7-c6-c5. Do not like.

Well, Black's idea is obviously that not having played e6 is beneficial, since his Bishop can get to f5 or g4. If White just carries on like in the advance French then 1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. e5 c5 4. c3 Nc6 5. Nf3 Bg4 is more than ok for Black.

I'm actually thinking about giving up on the idea already. I came across this line and don't really see much of a place to improve.

1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. e5 c5 4. dxc5 Nc6 5. Nf3 Bg4 6. Bb5 e6 7. b4



After 7.b4, black is scoring horribly. It's something like 75% in favor of white. The earliest place I can see to deviate would be with 5...e6, but that's extremely passive and white is doing great there too. After 6.Be3, white has a really nice grip on the dark squares and it looks like it'll be difficult for black to untangle.

This line above is causing me to give up on 3...c5 entirely.

Thanks for finding that line. As an e4 player, it's helpful to have some idea of how to approach a 3. ... c5 Caro if I ever run into one

Yeah 3.-c5 isn't looking too good these days. On the other hand 3.-Bf5 is looking as healthy and full of new ideas as ever - if people would be forced to play 3.e5 I'd play the Caro in every game

In wlrs I trust I was going through some recent games in the line and came across this one. Interesting treatment from GM Stellwagen as black. I like the 9...f6 idea. It's not a typical Caro idea but worked out really well here.

Mainka-Stellwagen 2012, 0-1

Maybe a dumb question, but what does black play if 19.Qxg3? White is a strong player but I like 19.Qxg3 better because the queen covers some nice dark squares from g3 and black's development/future play looks easier with 19.fxg3.

Probably 19...Qc7 after Qxg3. But yeah, I agree it looks better than what he did in the game.

19...qc7 seems to lose a pawn for black after the in between 20.nxd5. White's going to have an isolated pawn and a doubled pawn, but I think white also has a lot of play since after 0-0ch, black's king has to retreat.

i think 19.qxg3 is the more +ev, but balanced/drawish move. white probably tried to unbalance the position to hopefully exploit his weaker caro-drawing opponent. 20.qd7 followed by 000 seems like a good plan. and if the knights come off, i just think both sides see the position as drawn.

Yeah you're right about Qc7.. my mistake

as a french player, I would love playing 4...e6. I don't mind being one tempo away from the french advance where white gives up the center already (position is closed too so development doesn't really matter as much). I don't see a way for white to hold onto the c pawn profitably. White's center will also become an issue towards the middle game after black develops and gets the f6 break in (the d4 pawn is no longer there to hold onto the grip).

5.Nf3 was always a little uncomfortable in that line, and the more recent 5.a3!? has a gigantic plus score (75%+!) I used to play 4.-e6 a long time ago but it doesn't look trustworthy to me any more

Are you a Caro guy, or a former Caro guy? I didn't know that.