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Best defence against an attempted scholar's mate? Best defence against an attempted scholar's mate?

03-12-2009 , 05:00 PM
Due to being sucky, I mostly play sucky opposition. Due to this someone attempts to mate me like this maybe every 4 matches I am black. Usually I am using the Sicillian Defence.

Once the white queen and bishop are in position (or even just the queen, since once the queen is moved the bishop ALWAYS follows I swear), I have no trouble avoiding the checkmate, but I assume there is an optimal response or several strongest. What are they?
Best defence against an attempted scholar's mate? Quote
03-12-2009 , 05:13 PM
Almost any natural developing move that doesn't get you mated will be good.

For example after 1. e4 c5 2. Bc4?! is already a mistake, you can go 2...e6 and the bishop will turn out to be on a bad square (maybe you will get to play d7-d5 soon).

The only line where you have to be a bit careful about double threats is after something like 1. e4 e5 2. Bc4 Bc5 3. Qh5?! attacking e5 and f7 when you need to play 3...Qe7 to defend both threats and leave the f6-square for your knight. But in general just develop normally and you can expect to have a replay to any threat of mate in one.
Best defence against an attempted scholar's mate? Quote
03-12-2009 , 05:16 PM
Just remember to make use of good opening principles. Use the awkward placement of the queen on h5 (I'm assuming) to gain tempi with Nf6 or possibly g6. Don't forget your c-pawn will be attacked when the queen goes to h5.
Best defence against an attempted scholar's mate? Quote
03-12-2009 , 08:46 PM
Let's assume your opponent plays. 1. e4 c5 2. Bc4

So, Bc4 isn't the most popular of moves. So you should ask yourself why not! You can see two immediate issues with it pretty easily. The first is that it violates the old opening principle about knights before bishops, since it's easier to figure out where your knights belong. There's lots of exceptions to that rule, but this isn't one. How is white supposed to know the bishop belongs on c4? The second, and a little less apparent, problem. Is that white delays his thematic d4 central break. So is there an idea that exploits both of these weaknesses?

Yes! 2. .. Nc6. Now suddenly Bc4 looks very silly. With 2. .. Nc6 black tells white it's going to be a long time before he can play d4, which immediately exploits the fact that white delayed the d4 break. And even more so, it also exploits the fact that white prematurely developed his bishop. The resultant position without a d4 break will likely be of a closed nature. And in closed sicilian positions white often finds his bishop having the best position on g2. And that's no longer possible. So with one simple move, black exploits all the flaws of Bc4.

And another nice benefit of Nc6 is that it sets a "trap". It still lets white plays Qh5, then after e6 Qf3 Nf6 black has a quite large advantage. Heck white's position is so awkward that black can even consider the blunder turned gambit e4 c5 Bc4 Nc6 Qh5 g6!? Qxc5 e6 Qe3 Bh6 when it's already quite unclear where white's queen should go and the protection of the e4 pawn / development of white's queenside is made awkward as d3/d4 is prevented with the Bh6. Black has more than enough compensation in my opinion.

A funny variation would be: 1. e4 c5 2. Bc4 Nc6 3. Qh5 g6 4. Qxc5 e6 5. Qe3 Bh6 6. Qg3?! Nf6 (it's already quite difficult for white to defend his e pawn!) 7. Nc3 Nh5 8. Qd6 when after 8. .. Bf8 9. Qd3 Nb4 black picks up lots of material. Another option is 8. Qh3 when after 8. .. d5 9. Bb3 (9. exd exd just wins a piece) d4 10. Ne2 e5 11. Qd3, white's position is just comical in its awkwardness.
Best defence against an attempted scholar's mate? Quote
03-12-2009 , 10:54 PM
Hey guys,

1. e4 e5
2. Bc4 Bc5
3. Qh5 Qe7
4. Nf3 Nc6 (or ...d6)
5. Ng5

Now wat? I mean it seems like this should be refuted easily but what should black do now
Best defence against an attempted scholar's mate? Quote
03-12-2009 , 11:03 PM
1.e4 e5 2.Qh5 is the most forcing way (2.Bc4 can be answered by 2...Nf6 stopping Qh5). Now 2...Nc6 is the best way to defend the e-pawn, and 3.Bc4 threatens mate.

But 3...g6 defends the mate, and now 4.Qf3 renews the threat. You can just develop with 4...Nf6.

A tricky player might continue with 5.Qb3?, threatening 6.Bxf7+. You can safely play a move like 5...Qe7, or you can ignore the threat with 5...Nd4!

On 6.Bxf7+ Ke7, white can no longer defend his bishop, since the queen is attacked, and 7.Qc4, the only square to defend it, is met by 7...b5.
Best defence against an attempted scholar's mate? Quote
03-13-2009 , 12:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by garcia1000
Hey guys,

1. e4 e5
2. Bc4 Bc5
3. Qh5 Qe7
4. Nf3 Nc6 (or ...d6)
5. Ng5

Now wat? I mean it seems like this should be refuted easily but what should black do now
Why would you ever play 2.. Bc5? Just play 2.. Nf6 and you are completely fine..
Best defence against an attempted scholar's mate? Quote
03-13-2009 , 12:14 AM
Well, ...Bc5 is a 'book' opening, nothing wrong with it I think
Best defence against an attempted scholar's mate? Quote
03-13-2009 , 12:19 AM
Ok then, if you don't like that, just play simple 5.. g6 in the line you gave and you are almost winning already..
Best defence against an attempted scholar's mate? Quote
03-13-2009 , 12:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by YouKnowWho
Ok then, if you don't like that, just play simple 5.. g6 in the line you gave and you are almost winning already..
I could do Qxe5 and win a pawn though
Best defence against an attempted scholar's mate? Quote
03-13-2009 , 12:33 AM
What? You just played Ng5!! And even if the knight was on f3, you have it twice defended by knight on c6 and queen on e7..
Best defence against an attempted scholar's mate? Quote
03-13-2009 , 12:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by garcia1000
Hey guys,

1. e4 e5
2. Bc4 Bc5
3. Qh5 Qe7
4. Nf3 Nc6 (or ...d6)
5. Ng5

Now wat? I mean it seems like this should be refuted easily but what should black do now
5...Bxf2+. If 6.Kxf2 Qc5+ and the Qxc4 where it still covers f7.
Best defence against an attempted scholar's mate? Quote
03-13-2009 , 12:38 AM
Oh whoops

Let me see, so this is the position



...g6
Bxf7!! Kf8

White won a pawn and compromised black's king. But black has superior development. I would prefer white here though
Best defence against an attempted scholar's mate? Quote
03-13-2009 , 12:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimM
5...Bxf2+. If 6.Kxf2 Qc5+ and the Qxc4 where it still covers f7.
Is this the best line? I can see
Kxf2 Qc5+
Ke1 Qxc4
Rf1

And white still has some pressure on the f-pawn, and can develop his q-side with gain of time

This looks like a reasonable defense I guess
Best defence against an attempted scholar's mate? Quote
03-13-2009 , 12:43 AM
Bxf2+ is way worse Tim, because after simple Kxf2, Qc5+ white goes Kg3! (so that there are no checks later), and after Qc4 plays d3. Nf6 is then the best move for black, after which Qxh7 offers arround equal position (a little better for black maybe).
Best defence against an attempted scholar's mate? Quote
03-13-2009 , 12:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by garcia1000
Oh whoops

Let me see, so this is the position



...g6
Bxf7!! Kf8

White won a pawn and compromised black's king. But black has superior development. I would prefer white here though
Cmon man, do you care to calculate for a little bit more? You can get a close to winning position in a couple different ways here.. White has to play Qh4 - the only way to defend both pieces, after which both h6 and Nd4 are very good for black. h6 is more forced, the line goes:

..h6
Bxg8 Kxg8
Nf3 Qxh4
Nxh4 Nd4

and white has a tough position, even though he is a pawn up (he will most definitely lose that pawn back soon).
Best defence against an attempted scholar's mate? Quote
03-13-2009 , 02:24 AM
That's true because the queens are gone, that knight at d4 will threaten a lot of stuff.

Pretty interesting though I think
Best defence against an attempted scholar's mate? Quote
03-13-2009 , 11:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by garcia1000
Is this the best line? I can see
Kxf2 Qc5+
Ke1 Qxc4
Rf1

And white still has some pressure on the f-pawn, and can develop his q-side with gain of time

This looks like a reasonable defense I guess
Black is fine after 8...g6 and then ...f6 (unless white moves his queen to a square that allows something better).

Quote:
Originally Posted by YouKnowWho
Bxf2+ is way worse Tim, because after simple Kxf2, Qc5+ white goes Kg3! (so that there are no checks later), and after Qc4 plays d3. Nf6 is then the best move for black, after which Qxh7 offers arround equal position (a little better for black maybe).
9...Qxd3+ 10.cxd3 Nxh7 leaves black a clear pawn up.
Best defence against an attempted scholar's mate? Quote

      
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