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Is Banning the Ruy Lopez: Berlin Wall Feasible? Is Banning the Ruy Lopez: Berlin Wall Feasible?

10-09-2020 , 03:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sholar
I am not very familiar with high-level checkers, but the idea of randomizing the open moves (from among a collection of reasonable openings) is, to me, more interesting than chess960 (or this proposal)
Top level checkers is so drawish that in 1900 they introduced the two move restriction where the first move of each player was randomly drawn from cards and each player played both sides. In time this gave way to the three-move restriction where blacks first two and white's first move (black going first in checkers) were allotted thus on cards.

Certain move permutations were not allowed as they lead to the loss of material.

Currently, there is method where each player has a checker removed from his initial starting twelve.
Is Banning the Ruy Lopez: Berlin Wall Feasible? Quote
12-29-2020 , 10:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PyramidScheme
They are doing so less. But "not playing into it", might require White players abandoning 1. P-K4 all together.
How do you get the Berlin Wall after the King's Gambit?

What is the Berlin Wall Defense anyway? Is that just the Berlin Defense? The Berlin Defense seems more popular, as it used to be the Morphy Defense was usually played.

What is the problem with this defense. Is it too drawish? Is it as drawish as Petroff's Defense?
Is Banning the Ruy Lopez: Berlin Wall Feasible? Quote
12-30-2020 , 01:10 AM
Oh, I looked at it. It leads to drawish positions with queens and minor pieces exchanged and an open file or two. I might try it when playing for a draw, as I am good at endgame, but I never play 1e4e52Nf3Nc6 as black. White can play 2. f4, d4, Nc3, or c3 and usually no Berlin Defense and often sharp lines.
Is Banning the Ruy Lopez: Berlin Wall Feasible? Quote
01-01-2021 , 11:32 AM
The Chessbase database has white scoring 58% against the Berlin, while after 3...a6 White "only" scores 56%. The Berlin was an ideal weapon for Kramnik to keep Kasparov at bay and force him into queenless endgames in their world championship match, but objectively the opening is not that good. Even the Petrof scores better for black at 43%. Fashion is a factor in chess, I guess players will eventually grow tired of the Berlin.
Is Banning the Ruy Lopez: Berlin Wall Feasible? Quote
01-01-2021 , 07:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spielmacher
The Chessbase database has white scoring 58% against the Berlin, while after 3...a6 White "only" scores 56%. The Berlin was an ideal weapon for Kramnik to keep Kasparov at bay and force him into queenless endgames in their world championship match, but objectively the opening is not that good. Even the Petrof scores better for black at 43%. Fashion is a factor in chess, I guess players will eventually grow tired of the Berlin.
White wins more against the Berlin and Petroff, because black often plays them against stronger players playing for a draw.
Is Banning the Ruy Lopez: Berlin Wall Feasible? Quote
01-02-2021 , 09:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by deuceblocker
White wins more against the Berlin and Petroff, because black often plays them against stronger players playing for a draw.
In the chesstempo database blackīs elo performance with the Berlin is 41 points "under par". With the Morphy variation (3...a6) Black underperforms 35 rating points. Concretely, over all games in the database Blackīs TPR with the Berlin is slightly worse than with the (former) main line after 3...a6. The Petroff is TPR-wise the best of the three, Black underperforms just 30 points. There is no statistical argument to be found in favor of the Berlin over Petroff/ Ruy main lines. Itīs what Kramnik came up with to grind Kasparov down, he succeeded (even though he didnīt use the Berlin in all the Ruy Lopez games in the 2000-match) and the opening caught on.
Is Banning the Ruy Lopez: Berlin Wall Feasible? Quote
01-04-2021 , 09:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spielmacher
Itīs what Kramnik came up with to grind Kasparov down, he succeeded (even though he didnīt use the Berlin in all the Ruy Lopez games in the 2000-match) and the opening caught on.
Oh, so Kramnik was ahead in the match and so used the Berlin Defense to play for draws as black.

Maybe Kasparov could have used for complicated lines against the Berlin or played the Kings Gambit, Italian Game, or something which would be harder to get into a drawish line?

Last edited by deuceblocker; 01-04-2021 at 09:36 AM.
Is Banning the Ruy Lopez: Berlin Wall Feasible? Quote
01-04-2021 , 05:34 PM
He played it in the first game of the match and subsequently in three of the four other Ruy Lopez games, drawing all, but almost losing the one where he employed the Archangelsk Variation.
Is Banning the Ruy Lopez: Berlin Wall Feasible? Quote
01-04-2021 , 09:49 PM
I just don't get how if you are behind in the match and need a full point as white why you would play the Ruy Lopez or even 1e4e52.Nf3 allowing Petroffs Defense. I would think there would be lines that would avoid a fully open file and likely early exchanges of pieces. If you lose it doesn't matter that much. You need to give yourself a chance to win.

I guess the Berlin Wall became popular for people playing for a draw because the world champion used it.
Is Banning the Ruy Lopez: Berlin Wall Feasible? Quote
05-13-2021 , 01:00 AM
It's easy to say an opening is drawish in theory.
It's another to prove it in practise.
The human factor is always omnipresent and someone who thinks an opening is drawing can relax, make mistakes due to less vigilance and get pounced on by their opponent.
Is Banning the Ruy Lopez: Berlin Wall Feasible? Quote
10-04-2021 , 08:14 PM
As an expert chess player I am stunned by the brilliance of this idea. The Berlin Defense is only a beginning. We need to ask all the world's beginners what openings they think are too drawish and ban them forever. I can't believe world championship matches are still being played without beginners telling the players what openings they are allowed to play.
Is Banning the Ruy Lopez: Berlin Wall Feasible? Quote
10-09-2021 , 07:19 AM
It is well known that chess is a draw. The issue is that machines shaved off a couple of decades from the learning curve. They put us on the fast track in solving opening theory. On the other hand, the human factor is still in play. You can draw 99% of your games in correspondence chess and still lose most if not all of these positions over the board.
Is Banning the Ruy Lopez: Berlin Wall Feasible? Quote
12-29-2021 , 08:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PyramidScheme
blahhh above attitudes are why chess can't move with the times. It's like soccer fans defending how wonderful every game ending 1-0 is. I'm a huge fan of chess myself, and a decent player but I try to not let those "but it's been that way my whole life" feelings effect my attitude. How is it only me that thinks that these games are getting ridiculous.
Hi, I am not a good chess player (I wandered in here from the Backgammon section) but comparing the evolution (or lack thereof) of Chess to Football is a really bad idea. Back in the mid 1800s the average height of a European man was 5 ft 5 inches (1.65 m) , and back then the game was played by average guys. Today the average heigtht of a top flight goalkeeper is at least 6 feet 3 inches (1.905m). This, in a nutshell, is why there is such a shortage of goals in the modern game,: the goal is too small (if you are now laughing, look up the research at Liverpool, John Moores University, amongst others) A similar situation exists in tennis where the net is no longer the obstacle it used to be and big servers dominate a game that was intended to be a display of touch and finesse.

Why does chess need to "move with the times", imho its a near perfect test of intellect and forward planning. There will always be boring players in any game, some snooker players grind down the big break builders and flair players by frustrating them with grindingly slow play, always just staying fractionally within the rules. Some chess players may indeed be boring (and i'm guessing they will never be world champs or scary opposition in a tournament), chess is NOT boring and DOES NOT need to change.

Last edited by Dr-Dark; 12-29-2021 at 08:14 PM.
Is Banning the Ruy Lopez: Berlin Wall Feasible? Quote
01-11-2022 , 01:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by deuceblocker
I just don't get how if you are behind in the match and need a full point as white why you would play the Ruy Lopez or even 1e4e52.Nf3 allowing Petroffs Defense. I would think there would be lines that would avoid a fully open file and likely early exchanges of pieces. If you lose it doesn't matter that much. You need to give yourself a chance to win.

I guess the Berlin Wall became popular for people playing for a draw because the world champion used it.
How would you propose a 1.e4 player open the game and avoid the Berlin Wall? Most non Lopez lines have been analyzed since the 1800s and offer black a variety of relatively safe ways to pursue equality.
Is Banning the Ruy Lopez: Berlin Wall Feasible? Quote
01-16-2022 , 03:31 AM
Kasparov was playing promising line with the scotch in his WC match .
Is Banning the Ruy Lopez: Berlin Wall Feasible? Quote
01-17-2022 , 10:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montrealcorp
Kasparov was playing promising line with the scotch in his WC match .
That was a long time ago before opening theory was what it is now. A scotch game in the WC match now would make the berlin look like an 1800s kings gambit.
Is Banning the Ruy Lopez: Berlin Wall Feasible? Quote
01-17-2022 , 04:22 PM
Are u 2600 ??
Funny cause that excuses been used toward Kasparov in the 90s and he showed a lot of juice still was left in it .

Fwiw
https://youtu.be/1aCIMMjMWpU

In 2016 old Kasparov crush Wesley so with the scotch .

I doubt u got opponents as strong as So ….
The host even said in that same tournament Kasparov beat nakamura as well with the scotch .
Only 4 years ago ….
Yes it is blitz but they are still playing incredibly well in blitz at that level .
Anyway almost all opening gets equalized but there is a lot options in the scotch u can play around.

Anyway , just keep playing the Berlin if u think u have better winning chance
Is Banning the Ruy Lopez: Berlin Wall Feasible? Quote
01-20-2022 , 02:15 PM
There's occasional exciting games in the the Berlin too.

My point is that if you want to play 1.e4 and black wants to dry it out, you're going to face a lot of very equalizing stuff no matter what you play, whether its the Lopez, the Scotch, the Ponziani, the Italian, whatever. Banning one particular line won't solve that.
Is Banning the Ruy Lopez: Berlin Wall Feasible? Quote
01-20-2022 , 04:04 PM
Agree
Is Banning the Ruy Lopez: Berlin Wall Feasible? Quote
01-27-2022 , 01:46 PM
You can personally ban the berlin wall by playing d3 anyways.
Is Banning the Ruy Lopez: Berlin Wall Feasible? Quote
02-12-2022 , 12:01 PM
In his book Playing to Win (1988), GM James Plaskett proposed banning the Petroff Defense (1 e4 e5. 2 Nf3 Nf6).
Is Banning the Ruy Lopez: Berlin Wall Feasible? Quote
02-12-2022 , 11:15 PM
I ban the Petroff and the Berlin with 2.Bc4
Is Banning the Ruy Lopez: Berlin Wall Feasible? Quote
02-14-2022 , 01:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimM
I ban the Petroff and the Berlin with 2.Bc4
I ban the Scandinavian/Centre Counter with 1 e4 d5 2 d4!
Is Banning the Ruy Lopez: Berlin Wall Feasible? Quote
02-23-2022 , 10:08 AM
The Berlin Defense is quite a rich and complicated opening. It's boring reputation is rather undeserved. Used mainly by Top Grandmasters as a solid defense as black, it does have a high level of draws, but not more than a lot of other openings. However, since it was popularized in a World Championship Match, it came into public view already heavily analyzed, with many forced draws already pointed out.

But for basically 99% of the chess playing population, the Berlin offers a rich, complicated game, albeit without Queens on the board. There are plenty of minefields and ways to unbalance the game. Learning to play either side of this deep opening will undoubtedly help one improve their understanding of the game as a whole.

If you want to play in a game with a huge edge, where nobody really knows what they are doing, and people make horrible mistakes all the time..

.. try PLO8!!!

Its like chess in 1766!
Is Banning the Ruy Lopez: Berlin Wall Feasible? Quote
02-27-2022 , 08:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimM
I ban the Petroff and the Berlin with 2.Bc4
I also like the Bishop's Opening. It's pretty underrated iyam.
Is Banning the Ruy Lopez: Berlin Wall Feasible? Quote

      
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