It surprises me that on this forum there is very little discussion of online backgammon for real-money. Why is that? What can be done to improve the games that are offered so that you would play?

Which are the best sites that offer backgammon online?

What are the best online tournaments?

What levels of rake are beatable?

What is done well with online backgammon?

What is done badly?

Are bots an issue? With users able to choose to play medium / fast speed games does that adequately safeguard against bot usage? What else can be done?

What can / should sites do to improve the state of online backgammon?

What changes would you make if you were running an online backgammon site?

At it's absolute heart, the simple fact is no amateur player will trust it in my humble opinion.

There is no adequate bot protection either available or implementable - even if there were, I'm wholly unconvinced amateurs could be led to believe in it in significant enough numbers to make backgammon viable as a deposit driven peer to peer game.

It's a confusing, cruel and bad value slot machine as long as the sword of Damacles that bots represent hangs over it.

In my view, even worse than the threat of the bots is the rake, which on every site I know about is absurdly high -- so high that the game is essentially unbeatable.

The 'right' way to use online backgammon is to play for free on a site that allows you to record your session and matches. Then download the logs and use it for study material to improve your over the board game.

Poker is a fine game for online play: a relatively low rake, plenty of players, and no rating system that prevents players from getting games. Backgammon is very different -- it's a game that's suited for live play, not online play.

When you say bots do you mean instances when users are replicating the game moves into GNU and then making the recommended move (ie a human using software)? Surely, playing fast (or even medium) speed games can counter this as your opponent won't have time to replicate the move / take in the info and make it in the game in time?

Or are you concerned that there are some bots being run on sites without human intervention? I know that one operator actually publicly has a 'begginer bot' / 'pro bot' listed in the lobby for customers to play against.

Why are you so sure that nothing can be done to prevent any bot-abuse? How are you so sure that it's such a big issue? Have you played online and felt that opponents were 'too good' and feared they were using software?

What level of rake do you think is beatable (for cash games and then for tournaments)?

There are some sites with tournaments with a 10% rake but who offer guarantees which are rarely met and so the overlays compensate for the rake.

In terms of cash games, these tend to vary depending on stake. The level of rake for online poker tends to be approx 5% for cash games. The level of rake for backgammon online is not that different. Some sites have rake starting at 7.5% going down to 5.5% for higher-stakes games. How / why are these levels unbeatable? Some backgammon specific sites may offer lower rake but then tougher competition. If a sports-book operator provides backgammon and offers this level of rake, due to the softness of the player pool I certainly think that the games are beatable...

Puzzling. You seem to know a great deal about online backgammon, but insist on peppering us with questions as though you were a newbie.

If you believe the games are beatable then go beat them. I'm not stopping you. I personally think trying to make money at online BG is a waste of time, but if you disagree then go to it.

Apologies, I did not want my post to come off as a bombardment of questions - more as a starting point for a discussion around the state of online backgammon and what can be done to improve it.

It seems you, as well as many other backgammon enthusiasts, are not happy with the status quo of online backgammon. Therefore, I think that the positive thing to do is to start a discussion about what we are not happy about / changes that would improve the landscape. Wouldn't it be great if there were online sites on which backgammon enthusiasts could play real-money games with secure knowledge that they are protected against bots and in games in which they can beat the rake. I think that we're going to get to that place sooner by having open discussions.

A backgammon board is simple enough that you could bot it by literally watching the screen with a webcam to automatically input the moves on a second computer for analysis, so software solutions to cheating are out. So you're stuck with ER cutoffs at which point people can figure out what they are and make enough errors to play near the minimum allowable. Unless something analogous to 1 0 chess catches on in BG, online money play is just pointless.

Bot are a big issue, and rake also is crazy.
I remember in 2002 /2003 when gamesgrid launched the ejackpot there was a lotta action (lotta compared today). the problem was the use of the bot for sure, we had no timer action so the suspect was always on. GG usually was investigating on some account of "unknown" people playing very low error rate. people were asked for live analysis, identity confirmation etc. I remember an italian guy(that i knew for being a medium player 5/6 er rate on snowie) that when playin for money instantly start to play as an extraterrestrial. After investigation his account was closed , and we knew he was playin with a friend aside suugestin moves using snowie.
Another issue was peolple sharing accounts, so you thoght you was playing against mraverage as usual , but that day Morten Holm was playin that account. Lot of danish was doing that at that time on GG.
I don't remember the rake we paid there, but GG was a subscription paying site so it could be different. Right now rake is absolutely crazy. I play on bgroom and sometimes i laugh at what they take apart from games. I cannot understand how can they hope to survive.

On poker sites its about 5% of the pot, on the backgammon sites its the numbers you were saying but that's from EACH player then deducted from the winner. So 7.5% is actually 15% rake. Add to this a minimum that some sites use and sometimes it's a 25% rake on small cash games.

I think Robertie's advice on using the sites where you can download the game and analyze the game is spot on, that's how I use it and it's interesting way to study because you can get experience playing some odd positions that arise from the strange choices people make and play positions that bot's wouldn't get into.

One thing I look for is sites that offer freeroll tourney's. I can cash a few times and start a small bank roll and then play the ripoff rakes and not worry about it so much.

Bill Robertie is correct - it's very hard to make money from online backgammon.

I consider backgammon a far more enjoyable game than poker but as I live in a country that is geographically isolated - well online poer has it's attractiions.

I am also finding it hard as there is only one chouette in our town and some one keeping records informed me that for the last 50 sessions (1 session a week) I have been the big winner in 48 and only lost 2 times. The stakes are low but I am fast becoming not welcome (I try to be a gracious winner).

Although I love backgammon (and work very hard at improving) I will probably start playing poker online for money (ironically using resources like the Harrington books on cash games co written by Bill). Fortunately my business is going well so Poker is a backup plan but I'm not sure that I would recommend anyone learn backgammon if making money was there goal.

This is an important point. When you practice exclusively against the bots and then go to play live BG, most people notice that their error rate rises substantially. That's because you're now playing a lot of positions that you never see against the bots. You're like a golfer who learns how to play on his home course and then has to adjust when moving to some other course. In some sense it becomes a whole new game.

I think this is why a lot of the old-time players like Kit Woolsey and Mike Senkiewicz do well in modern tournaments. They had tons of practice in the old days playing not only fish but also playing weird complicated positions. That background serves them well in live play.

Is that right?

Player1 pays $1 + 5% rake = $1.05
Player2 pays $1 + 5% rake = $1.05

Total paid is $2.10, of which 0.10 is rake. 0.10/2 = 5%

Isn't this how it is done?

$1 bet from each player, rake is 7.5% per player. Player A beats Player B:

Player B loses $1

Player A wins $1.85, his initial $1 plus the $1 from his opponent minus the 7.5% due from each player.

This is how's its done on all the BG sites I've seen.

You're describing 92.5c + 7.5c which is 19% rake, imo (7.5/92.5 = .19)

You have to go to the heart of darkness, if you want to understand, why online backgammon isn’t profitable anymore.
If gambling is a zero-sum situation, there is no market nor profit. If you want to have a profit there must be a constant flow from one side to the other (or there is enough added in the pot). So the incentive for the winner is clear: money. But what is the incentive for the loser? What is his secondary gain (he will loose his money for sure)?
The answer for online backgammon, perhaps for backgammon in the bot ages in general: there is no more morbid gain anymore. There aren’t absolutely no more polite words for pigeons anymore. PR 10, weak as fish. In the old days, a pigeon could say: I am biased, I have not a strong arm and so on. He stayed longer in the loss and desolation zone. And the live situation in this time gave him an added morbid gain (very instructive Danny Kleinman in “Vision laughs about counting”: Do you know a polite word to say pigeon?). Nowadays it is absolutely clear, that the fish is the raison d’etre of the game. Poker has still the illusion, that even the customers could win.
And even a Walter Trice was proud, not to went broke in all the time, he played backgammon. Look at Florida 2012 (16! in the open): Neil Kazaross (IL), 2-Perry Gartner (FL), 3/4-Mike Corbett (FL) / Alex Gerding (FL); 1LC-Gregg Cattanach (GA). The pros are eating thyself.
If there would be a true strong hold’em bot and the possibility to analyze a session post mortem to get a PR, cockfight betting will be the next thing.

higonefive,

your analysis is very poor because you totally ignore the reason that underdogs play backgammon - the answer is because they enjoy it.

if you want to pay no rake, then just play against a friend. however, you're paying rake in exchange for liquidity. that's the tradeoff - you give payments to an online site, and they give you a variety of opponents.

@ higonefive

If reality was based on your post then nobody would play casino games because they are a clear waste of money.

A quick reality check shows that this is not true. People play a game because they enjoy to do it. If they win or lose a few bucks that's ok.

Main problem with backgammon is that is not promoted enough. It should look lucrative to the recreational player with big tournaments and big promos.

You have to understand the concept of secondary (morbid) gain and the steps of a gambling career: winning zone, loss zone and desolation zone. One third of the prisoners in the united states have problems with compulsive gambling (Abstract: "A review of problem gambling in forensic populations suggests that one third of criminal offenders meet criteria for problem or pathological gambling. This is the highest rate yet found in any population. Approximately 50% of crime by incarcerated problem and pathological gamblers is reportedly committed to support gambling. The prevalence of gambling within correctional facilities (40%) appears lower than in the general population. However, inmates who do gamble tend to do so regularly, and problem and pathological gamblers are disproportionately represented among this group. ..." Williams, Royston, Hagan. Gambling and Problem Gambling Within Forensic Populations: A Review of the Literature. Criminal Justice and Behavior December 2005 vol. 32 no. 6 665-689). As an sophisticated entrance watch the film 'california split' from Robert Altman.

And my analysis is under this pow: the customers, not only the pros (Gus Hansen, Eric Seidel, François Tardieu, Bill Robertie etc. pp.) turned from Backgammon to Poker. It is definitely much harder for a fish to enjoy backgammon (and having fun/morbid gain) in the bot times. Do you think, a compulsive gamer enjoys a situation in the long run, where he easy can see, how bad he gambles?

Ok. One thing i've never understand, why uncle sam plays roulette with a double zero or even Keno.

And i wonder why bridge is so popular.

I have recently started learning backgammon. I am not yet where I would want to be to play for money, but what sort of stakes do you think it becomes too hard to be profitable? I suppose if one becomes good at a certain stake their rating increases and its too hard to get a game?

Is it possible to make a bit of money on the side however playing lowish stakes?

Hi muss1,

the higher u play the higher the probability to play against a bot- cheater or shark. Better play lower stakes. If your rating gets high, still some fish will ask you to play if the stake isnt too high. But less sharks will ask.

Thanks Donby. Yeah that's what I figured as well. I'm only interested in playing low stakes at the moment - it's just more exciting than play money. I am interested to know what stakes cheaters would start playing, but I guess there's only one way to find out.

I saw people with bots playing 1 dollar the point. WHat you have to do is analyse directly after and anyway, when you see that your oponent isnt a fish, just go out and search new oponent. I play since 2 years on the same servers and i know many players, have their statistics in xg, so the probability to get a weak oponent goes up.

Ladbrokes site offers a true 1% rake. Unfortunately it does not have many players. And it does have a ranking system so when you start winning no on wants to play you. Some sites like gameaccount say that they have a 1% rake but if you do the calculation you can see that it is at least 5%.

A player does not even have to use a bot for any moves - merely using it for your cube decisions will hide the fact that you are using one and give you a good edge (I saw this mentioned in a forum).

BAckgammon is a fantastic game but I know several Backgammon players who are playing poker as it is easy to find an online game, you can make money at it, and if you are a good backgammon player and study it you will do well at it.

This thread has been dead a long time but I'll give my opinion anyway. Last year I looked high and low for a BG site that allowed US players to play for money, er, tickets, I mean. The only site I found was GameColony.com. I was dubious about all the bots and hustlers, yada, yada. So, I only deposited $25. I started playing for 3-5bucks a match, won pretty steadily, and had the account up to $150. Then I bumped it to 10-20 a match, went on a bad dice run, and lost it all in four days.

I won't put anymore money into it.It's not because of bots or hustlers, it's the super-high 5-4 rake. If we play 5pt matches for $20, they take $4 off the top at the start of every match.. If we play 5 matches and I win three I'm $20 ahead - $20 to GameColony = Break even. With their rake you have to win 2x as much as you lose to stay aheadof that rake. GameConony makes all the money all the time. When I went broke I figured out My money match record was something like 80-36.

Nevertheless, there is action all the time there. There are people playing 2pt matches for $20 (which is totally crazy), and a few players trolling for $50 and $100 matches. All the money players sandbag their ratings by intentionally losing non money matches. (it's actually liberating hoping they will suck out on you.) However you can look at a player's profile to see the W-L record in money matches. It doesn't take a genius to figure out who is good and who is bad.

Overall the level of play was "casual player" speed. There are a few "intermediate-advanced" level players. I ran every match thru GNU (GC makes saving matches harder than they should) and nothing looked suspicious in terms of bot usage. I doubt at 10-20 a match it'd be worth it to cheat. and if you're betting a $100 to win $80 you hate money, so you'd be getting what you want anyway..

Can you make money hosting a for money BG site? GameColony brings in $500-$1000 a day I bet from backgammon. Idk what the overhead is but I know they don't seem to care about backgammon. Their platform is akward to play on, their rake is high, and their tournaments are a joke. I'd venture that if the folks at GridGammon instituted a similar "ticket" system with a rational rake (winner pays 5% min $1 Max $10) they'd see enough small dollar matches to make it worth their while. Membership fees and/or an hourly rate would be another way to do it.

I'd rather play for small stakes than none at all. I actually wouldn't mind donating to better players if it strengthens my game. If you play at 1950 and I play at 1550, I'm not likely to entice you to play otherwise. That's how it works at the pool hall, and that's a game where the better player stands out quick.
From my experience, the meat and potatoes of a professional gambler is regular customers--people that know they'll probably lose. The trick is to win what they want to lose and not a penny more. If you treat people like suckers and snap them off they will hate you and never come back. But I digress.

I actually don't see what an existing "fun" BG site/app has to lose by taking escrow funds. GameColony is obviously getting away with it--and they suck. You may not make millions but you'll make more than you had.