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Should Black take? Should Black take?
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12-18-2022 , 04:46 PM
#1
cornelius1
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centurion
Join Date: Apr 2021 Posts: 108


The score is 0-0 in a 5 point match. White leads 25 pips and doubles. Should Black take?
Should Black take? Quote
12-18-2022 , 09:19 PM
#2
RolldUpTrips
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old hand
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Is this honestly a correct double? Can't imagine losing your market here except like 55
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12-20-2022 , 01:20 PM
#3
_Z_'s Avatar
_Z_
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adept
Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 720
I think any hit/dance sequence should lose the market, but yeah, I think the double is more the question here. White usually misses, Black usually enters, and then Black has a decent game. That's doesn't tell the whole story, but it's a pretty like scenario, and it would cause me to take without too much thinking.
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12-20-2022 , 01:53 PM
#4
uberkuber
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RolldUpTrips
Is this honestly a correct double? Can't imagine losing your market here except like 55
63 is also a market loser, isn't it?
Should Black take? Quote
12-20-2022 , 07:39 PM
#5
cornelius1
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centurion
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@ _Z_: White has a massive pip count lead, a 3-board against a 2-board and a direct hitting opportunity. And as if all this wasn't already bad enough Black also has the disadvantage of having to reenter. What overthrows all these arguments for Black to drop?
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12-20-2022 , 10:36 PM
#6
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_Z_
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adept
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Unless it goes hit/dance, it's not easy for White to bring those two back checkers around and then bring home the checkers on the midpoint. Black's is often going to have many chances to hit or block White's checkers.

It might be helpful to play several games against the computer from this position as White with Black holding the cube. I think you'll see lots of problems White has bringing this home.
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12-21-2022 , 10:01 AM
#7
sdfsgf
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grinder
Join Date: Aug 2019 Posts: 667
I think it’s easy to underestimate black’s prime value here, but even just having the made the 4 pt with white having both checkers on the 23 is enough to give white some problems.
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12-21-2022 , 11:14 AM
#8
stremba70
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adept
Join Date: Aug 2020 Posts: 1,105
There is a reason that the 5 point is called the golden point. It is very rare to have a position with a 5 point anchor that is a drop, almost regardless of the racing deficit. In fact the worst positions with the five point anchor are ones with moderate deficits rather than large ones. Moderate deficits often result in being forced off the anchor prematurely. Larger racing deficits do not typically have this issue. If black is hit it just increases the likelihood that he will hang on to the anchor long enough to generate shots later on. This position almost has to be a fairly easy take for black.
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12-21-2022 , 01:32 PM
#9
RolldUpTrips
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stremba70
There is a reason that the 5 point is called the golden point. It is very rare to have a position with a 5 point anchor that is a drop, almost regardless of the racing deficit. In fact the worst positions with the five point anchor are ones with moderate deficits rather than large ones. Moderate deficits often result in being forced off the anchor prematurely. Larger racing deficits do not typically have this issue. If black is hit it just increases the likelihood that he will hang on to the anchor long enough to generate shots later on. This position almost has to be a fairly easy take for black.
This, which is why I wasn't even sure it's a double.
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12-21-2022 , 02:30 PM
#10
Robertie
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old hand
Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 1,954
Quote:
Originally Posted by cornelius1
@ _Z_: White has a massive pip count lead, a 3-board against a 2-board and a direct hitting opportunity. And as if all this wasn't already bad enough Black also has the disadvantage of having to reenter. What overthrows all these arguments for Black to drop?
The fact that White has two checkers back on the 23-point that have to get all the way around the board while Black sits and waits to pounce. The take must be monstrous; it's the double that's the problem.
Should Black take? Quote
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