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Rule of thumb for "Too Good" or "Double"

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08-05-2015 , 02:21 PM

Fllecha

journeyman

Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 321

A good rule of thumb given by Robertie gave me a real benefit in my playing: He said that the default choice is to take when you can't decide if a certain cube is a take or a pass. In most of the cases is right.

Now I ask for a default rule of thumb when you are not certain if a position is "too good to double" or "double" (Obviously we are talking of match play of course NO CASH GAME) I really need it.

For example take a look at this position:

White - Pips 157. Match Score 1/5

Black - Pips 118. Match Score 0/5
Black on roll. Cube action?
Created with www.BGdiagram.com

It's obv for example that if white had one checker on the bar, then black is clearly too good. But now I have some real difficulties.

I DONT ASK FOR THIS POSITION: I'm looking for a rule of thumb for discriminate too good from doubles.

Thank you.

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08-05-2015 , 06:33 PM

_Z_

adept

Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 720

When in doubt, double. You never know when the guy is going to take.

That's probably not what you're asking.

OK, one thing you can do is picture a pretty bad sequence. Your play, then his. If you aren't sure whether that's a take or pass, then you can pretty safely play on in the current position.

But really, rules of thumb for backgammon tend not be particularly useful. Every position has to be judged on its individual merits.

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08-05-2015 , 09:08 PM

911InsideJob

enthusiast

Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 52

You might find this discussion helpful...

http://dorbeldaily.blogspot.com/2012/03/reprise.html

see in particular the text in red from Stick Rice

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08-06-2015 , 03:31 AM

Fllecha

journeyman

Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 321

The discussion is in fact real interesting... So for practical play (if you cant decide) its better off doubling to avoid tough play, jokers, and you never know if our opponent is gonna take (and it's a fact that many player do that)

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08-06-2015 , 08:29 PM

Taper_Mike

adept

Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 1,030

I play a lot of practice games against the computer, with many/most as "unlimited" games. The single best thing I ever did to learn more about the "too good" decision is turn off the Jacoby Rule in those sessions. Now, I face many "too-good" decisions on a 1-cube that were obvious doubles when Jacoby was in force.

It's a great way to practice. No only do you face the decision more often, but the choice you face will not be affected by match score. Later, you can adapt what you have learned for match play.

Mike

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08-07-2015 , 06:51 AM

Fllecha

journeyman

Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 321

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taper_Mike

It's a great way to practice. No only do you face the decision more often, but the choice you face will not be affected by match score. Later, you can adapt what you have learned for match play.

Mike

Completely agree... in 2015 it's almost useless the jacobi rule because online and in all backgammon tournament they all play matches.

But do you agree (as a general rule) with what was said on this thread by other commentators ("double when in doubt with too good") ?

Many Thanks

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08-07-2015 , 03:07 PM

Taper_Mike

adept

Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 1,030

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fllecha

do you agree (as a general rule) with what was said on this thread by other commentators ("double when in doubt with too good") ?

Yes, I do. I agree with the reasoning, as well.

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08-07-2015 , 06:18 PM

GrantHoffman

centurion

Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 113

I have been playing 27 years in New Zealand I have never seen the Jacoby rule used. In fact I have explained it to players here and none of them wanted to use it. Not using Jacoby means there is less transition to match play.

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08-08-2015 , 04:04 PM

Donby

enthusiast

Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 59

Really if you want to have a rule of thumb for 'too good' in match play, you have to know the TPs of every score and the gammon values, especially at lopsided scores which differ a lot from money.

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08-08-2015 , 04:48 PM

#10

Fllecha

journeyman

Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 321

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donby

Really if you want to have a rule of thumb for 'too good' in match play, you have to know the TPs of every score and the gammon values, especially at lopsided scores which differ a lot from money.

I digest and internalized Kit Woolsey "5 point match" masterpiece, for all scores, but it's hard to generalize for say 17-point match

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08-09-2015 , 05:50 AM

#11

Donby

enthusiast

Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fllecha

I digest and internalized Kit Woolsey "5 point match" masterpiece, for all scores, but it's hard to generalize for say 17-point match

Yea, 17point match is tough. Some tools which were very helpful for me are

-Neils Numbers, from which you can easily get the match equity and takepoints when the cube would put the match on the line

- O'Heagans rules of thumbs for takepoints and gammon values in 15 point matches

http://www.checkerplay.com/strategy/...5-point-match/

- checking as many positions as possible while guessing how many gammons and single wins happen to get a feeling for that

- of course reading everything what Robertie wrote about match play and moneygame (books and the probs here)

maybe there is something helpful for you,

cheers

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08-11-2015 , 07:53 AM

#12

peachpie

centurion

Join Date: Aug 2014 Posts: 182

Interesting, for me the lack of Jacoby rule is the one thing I really hate about match play. I would much rather use it. My biggest pet peeve is playing out undoubled gammons, it is just so boooooring.

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08-11-2015 , 10:12 AM

#13

uberkuber

veteran

Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 3,031

Why would playing out doubled gammons be less boring?

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08-11-2015 , 04:39 PM

#14

peachpie

centurion

Join Date: Aug 2014 Posts: 182

For me, it just is.

Also, from the mere existence of the Jacoby rule, I deduce that I am not alone in preferring not to play them out. From its popularity in money games and chouettes, I suspect that I am in the majority, at least in the USA.

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