Two Plus Two Poker Forums Problem of the Week #86: November 29
 Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read TwoPlusTwo.com

 Notices The Theory of Poker Applied to No-Limit now available For those of you here in Las Vegas, The Theory of Poker Applied to No-Limit by David Sklansky is now available at Gambler’s General Store/ GAMBLER'S BOOK CLUB in downtown Las Vegas. Their address is 727 S Main St, Las Vegas, NV 89101 and their phone number is (702) 382-9903. We also have this title available in several special poker book promotions directly from Two Plus Two Publishing. For more info or to ask questions check out this thread in the books and publications forum: Sklansky Invites Reviews, Comments, And Questions, About Theory of Poker Applied To No Limit .

 Backgammon Forum hosted by Bill Robertie. Discussion of anything related to backgammon: strategy, problems, books, clubs, and tournaments.

 11-28-2010, 11:19 PM #1 Robertie old hand   Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 1,740 Problem of the Week #86: November 29 Problem of the Week #86: November 29 Cash game, Black owns the cube. (a) Should Black double? If he doubles, should White take, drop, or beaver? (b) Assume Black doubles and White takes. How should Black play (1) 6-2? (2) 6-3? (3) 4-3? (4) 5-4? Note: All ‘cash game’ problems assume the Jacoby Rule is in effect. That is, you can’t win a gammon unless the cube has been turned.
 11-29-2010, 12:08 AM #2 Bjornar old hand     Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Norwegian donkey Posts: 1,969 Re: Problem of the Week #86: November 29 This is seriously close to too good. I would probably play it as a practical too good. That said loads of stuff can go horribly wrong here but I still think this is too good to double/pass. As for the rolls. 1) 6-2 looks like hitting the last blot. Putting one more checker behind the prime. Ruins timing for white if he enters has a lot more trouble keeping his prime. 2) 6-3 Id play 8/2 and then Im not sure about the 3. Dont really want to break my 5-prime just yet, 7-4 is just wrong so that leaves 18/15. 3) 4-3 looks like the easiest. Id play 5/1 5/2 auto. 4) 5-4 I thought about breaking the 6-point but I dont want to break that point cos Im having trouble pick and pass or make that point and if he anchors the 6 I dont like my chances anymore. I would play 7/2 and look for a proper 4. Only one that looks usefull is 18/14. Cube: Too good to double/megadrop 1) 18/10* 2) 8/2 18/15 3) 5/2 5/1 4) 7/2 18/14
 11-29-2010, 01:52 AM #3 apkrnewb old hand   Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 1,565 Re: Problem of the Week #86: November 29 (a) Should Black double? NO! If he doubles, should White take, drop, or beaver? White should take! (1) 6-2? ... 24 - 18 ... 7 - 5 (2) 6-3? ... 24 - 18 ... 7 - 4 (3) 4-3? ... 8 - 1 (4) 5-4? ... 7 - 3 ... 8 -3
 11-29-2010, 01:58 AM #4 TomCowley Pooh-Bah     Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 5,649 Re: Problem of the Week #86: November 29 This is last week after 5/3*/2* + fan. Taking seems awful here. Black just hit part 1 of his god sequence, and his gammon and win chances just shot up. Don't really know if it's too good, but I don't think it's a huge mistake to cube here, since you still have some work to do to win or gammon, and the game can still go to hell, and when it can't be a big mistake, and you might get an awful take, ship it. Double/drop. 6-2: 18/10* If he gets in, which he probably will, you want him crunching ASAP. Escaping your last guy is nice, but you're a big favorite to get sent back again anyway, and the guy on the 10 is a few turns of timing and also some board coverage. 6-3: 7/1 18/15. Again, you can run, but with 2 loose men, you're likely to get sent back. So you should cover one of them here. 8/2 8/5, 8/2 18/15, 7/1 18/15 seems like the real choices. In a vacuum, covering the 2 is better, since if he enters on the 1, he has to roll 2-big to get out. But if you play 8/2 18/15, you leave a lot of downside with 4 loose blots, and this and 8/2 8/5 only leave a 4-prime to jump if he comes in on the 3. Burying with 7/1 and 18/15 seems like the way to go. You keep the 5 prime and you threaten to send the 3rd man back. 4-3: 5/2 5/1 seems way the best. What else? 8/1? 18/11? 5-4: Ugh. This is like a combination of 2 and 3 with an additional option thrown in. You can 6/2 6/1 like the 43 roll, you can 7/2 18/14 like the 63 roll, or you can roll forward with 8/3 7/3. I like my 5-prime, and if I'm going to keep it, then 7/2 18/14 seems like a far more productive version, cleaning up a blot and threatening another. I think it's better than cleaning up both blots (which you had to do with 43 since everything else just sucked.. here your 63 repeat doesn't suck at all and you're covering the better of the two plots).
 11-29-2010, 06:21 AM #5 loveinvain veteran   Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 2,143 Re: Problem of the Week #86: November 29 Too good to double. (1) 6-2? 18-10* (2) 6-3? 24-15 (3) 4-3? 7-3 18-15 (4) 5-4? 7-3 18-13
11-29-2010, 09:31 AM   #6
loveinvain
veteran

Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,143
Re: Problem of the Week #86: November 29

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Bjornar This is seriously close to too good. I would probably play it as a practical too good. That said loads of stuff can go horribly wrong here but I still think this is too good to double/pass. As for the rolls. 1) 6-2 looks like hitting the last blot. Putting one more checker behind the prime. Ruins timing for white if he enters has a lot more trouble keeping his prime. 2) 6-3 Id play 8/2 and then Im not sure about the 3. Dont really want to break my 5-prime just yet, 7-4 is just wrong so that leaves 18/15. 3) 4-3 looks like the easiest. Id play 5/1 5/2 auto. 4) 5-4 I thought about breaking the 6-point but I dont want to break that point cos Im having trouble pick and pass or make that point and if he anchors the 6 I dont like my chances anymore. I would play 7/2 and look for a proper 4. Only one that looks usefull is 18/14. Cube: Too good to double/megadrop 1) 18/10* 2) 8/2 18/15 3) 5/2 5/1 4) 7/2 18/14
I'm surprised that two out of three responders other then myself have chosen this play with 4-3. Maybe I'm missing something but IMO this play is absolutely horrible and I wouldn't even consider it.

 11-29-2010, 11:39 AM #7 ferrengi grinder   Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 683 Re: Problem of the Week #86: November 29 Double/Drop A good player playing as black will make the plays necessary to force white to crunch first. There are very few bad numbers for black as he doesn't mind getting hit because it will cause white's checkers to be stuck behind the prime. (1) 6-2 - 24/18, 7/5. First priority is to escape a back checker. Covering a blot in the home board is not that useful. (2) 6-3 - 24/18, 7/4 (3) 4-3 - 18/11 (4) 5-4 - 18/9
 11-29-2010, 11:41 AM #8 ferrengi grinder   Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 683 Re: Problem of the Week #86: November 29 I thought you can't be too good to double in a cash game??? EDIT - Nevermind - I forgot that black owns the cube and doesn't want to give white the chance to drop an get out of a gammon. I still think doubling is correct as there as still some things that can go wrong.
 11-29-2010, 12:34 PM #9 higonefive journeyman     Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Germany, lower saxony Posts: 317 Re: Problem of the Week #86: November 29 86a) This position is so borderline and there is an accident on the way to the bank possible, that i would cash for practical purposes. A perfect opponent or Colonel Whiteflag will drop in a shot, but the gain of a take by Fearless Freddie is huge. As we have seen, it is not uncommon, that some people overestimate the static view of such a position. So, there might be a few people, who will thought: “I have a 5 point board, and there are two blots to shoot, after all it is prime vs. prime and didn't even Stick said we are droppin this to often? So i will take this. And by the way, what about the recube vig?“ So i would go to the cube with hesitance, drop my hand back, ponder for the recube and after 30 seconds or so, i would slowly ship it over, with an anxious view. I think some people can be lured in with this tell. Let us consider this in another way. My estimation is: borderline drop about 0.05 and a huge blunder to take, about 0.5. So i will gain, if there is a 10:1 chance, that my opponent will take. And suppose, you have to play this against Stick or Bill, very skillful opponents, where i think, the skill would push it under the too good to double line. A double out is even more mandatory. And i would every turn think at Kent Gouldings advice, if i would hold the cube now: never forget, every turn is a cube decision. But i would ship it over. So: double, drop. 86b1: 62) According to Bills checklist, conflict between 1 and 2. But the timing of white after a hit is on verge to be squeezed off in the offense, so i would strongly vote for hitting in the outfield. 62: 18/10*. 86b2: 63) Escaping is Number 1 goal, but what with the ugly 3? Marching on in the outfield? I don't know. Two blots to shoot on in the process, with two blots in the home board. Will be to much time for white to buy. 7/4? I am hesitant even to semikill my chekkers. What about button up? 7/1 18/15? Cut down to two blots, 5 prime at work. Shooting on the last blot in the outfield. If we are not hit, what is now likely, we are suddenly in blitz mode. Getting out is to loose for my blood, so: 63: 7/1 18/15. 86b3: 43) This is an old turd and if i wouldn't have doubled, this is pipcelots revenge. I'll make a virtue out of necessity and switch into blitz mode. Maybe one of the worst throws. 43: 5/2 5/1. 86b4: 54) With 54 we can also switch in blitz mode, but if i recognize the blot clean up with 63 for good, then making the 2 must even better. A working 5 prime must be better as to commit to a blitz. There is also a better chance to eat on 10, so: 54: 7/2 18/14.
 11-29-2010, 05:10 PM #10 networth veteran   Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: sochi Posts: 2,208 Re: Problem of the Week #86: November 29 Double/Drop 24/18 7/5 8/2 8/5 5/1 5/2 7/2 18/14
 11-30-2010, 05:25 AM #11 Joppe enthusiast     Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Sweden Posts: 84 Re: Problem of the Week #86: November 29 I think there is far too mush crunching here for white to take. I don´t think its too good, but even if I knew it was, I´m shipping the cube anyways. Some players will take in a second. As for the checker plays I love that beautiful 5-prime and I am not gonna break it almost no matter what. Converting the game to a blitz just makes white a favorite any time he hits something or comes in on a high point. (1) 6-2? 24/18 7/5. With the hit in the outfield we might be the one to crash first. Getting the back man out gains a lot of timing even though we will probably get another guy sent back. (2) 6-3? 24/18 7/4. I don´t want to break my 8-point and make it easier for him to escape. (3) 4-3? 18/14 7/4. I don´t want to break the prime. (4) 5-4? 8/3 7/3. Seems like the hardest one to me. I´m not in a hurry to make my 3-point, but I really want to make the points in order here and I just cant find a good alternative.
 11-30-2010, 03:46 PM #12 Werty83 centurion   Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: climbing SSNL rung by rung Posts: 177 Re: Problem of the Week #86: November 29 Too Good I think. Disaster scenario involves leaving the blots exposed and then getting hit, but...that's not even that bad. Playing prime v. prime if we're off for some rolls, while white has to roll combos to get out from behind our 5-prime, he may crunch pretty quickly. Probably a double against any person though because the takes outweigh the drops, I think. 1) 24/18 7/5. Didn't Robertie list the #1 priority in the previous problem as "getting your back checkers out? Yes white hits a 1 or a 2 20 times in 36, but we're guaranteed to have one back there if we don't play 24/18. Again, if we do get hit, it's not the end of the world to be off when we're playing prime v. prime in terms of timing. 2) 24/18 7/4. Essentially the same as the last one. 3) 4-3 really is an ugh. I probably just play 18/11 in order to maintain my prime, reduce number of shots while doing so. as to 5/1 5/2 I don't think it's nearly as awful as some are saying above, because if our opponent comes in on the 5 or 3 we can hit and slot most likely, and we'll keep him off entirely a bunch of the time. I just like keeping the 5 prime because of how likely he is to crunch if we do. 4) Initial instinct was definitely just 7/2 18/14, seeing no reason not to just make the point/play safer. However, 8/3 7/3, upon further review, is quite nice. It maintains the 5 prime while making dance followed by a 6 a full prime. Mostly I have no idea here. I'd probably just play it safe.
 12-01-2010, 01:08 PM #13 Flaccus newbie   Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 16 Re: Problem of the Week #86: November 29 One only needs to know two words for all of these problems: Blitz! Gammon! That is all (with 54 one should keep the prime, though, and it's D/P).
12-02-2010, 02:05 AM   #14
Bjornar
old hand

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Norwegian donkey
Posts: 1,969
Re: Problem of the Week #86: November 29

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Flaccus One only needs to know two words for all of these problems: Blitz! Gammon! That is all (with 54 one should keep the prime, though, and it's D/P).
There are several ways of performing that in this position IMO. Would be nice to hear more defined what you would want to do here.

 12-02-2010, 12:11 PM #15 Flaccus newbie   Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 16 Re: Problem of the Week #86: November 29 Okay, I have the time to respond properly. Double, drop - I see sequences where White's winning chances improve and we can't use the cube. It's not like we are crushing white completely while we have four blots and he has a stronger five point board, but we are a solid favorite having the initiative, better timing and lots of gammons. 62: 18/10* - We are not about to crash soon but we can increase White's chances of cracking and improve our gammon chances. I'm not worried about being hit here and this seems better than covering in this position. We simply kill the crucial timing represented by that white checker on the outfield. White needs to roll very well soon. 63: 7/1 18/15 - Preserving a five prime and getting a four point board seems pretty good to me. White must roll well. Other plays seem more dangerous and leave more counterplay. Escaping is still not a priority here, we should have enough timing for that (with this play). I don't want to leave three or four blots when we can do better. 43: 5/2 5/1 - There's nothing better to do with his roll. You do make a four-point board against two checkers on the bar while white has another vulnerable checker on the outfield. You can win a gammon without the five pt. You'll have numbers to at least pick and pass and should have enough rolls to pop that six, although it's no fun when he's able to anchor quickly. Moving the outfield checker leave us with a loose position and diminishes our timing and I'm not destroying our five prime without covering both inner blots. 54: 7/2 18/14 - We can preserve a five prime, get a four point board and aim at the outfield checker. This is probably better than switching and avoids the nasty variations when white enters quickly.
 12-02-2010, 12:38 PM #16 bschr04 grinder     Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Philadelphia Posts: 454 Re: Problem of the Week #86: November 29 A) Double/drop B3) 5/2, 5/1- I dont mind breaking the priming game for a strong blitzing game where we still have a blot to attack. B4) 7/2, 18/14 - With white's strong home board, it seems like things can go downhill pretty quickly if we make the 3 and leave blots on the 1,2, and 8. We give white the opportunity to hit AND come in on the edge of our prime with a single 2, which is bad. Before if he wanted be at the edge, he wouldnt be hitting and vice versa. Seems like too much risk for not enough gain. 7/2, 18/14 covers a blot and puts whites blot in the range of a direct shot. I have to give the 6-x's some more thought.
 12-02-2010, 12:48 PM #17 uberkuber veteran   Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Canada Posts: 2,216 Re: Problem of the Week #86: November 29 (a) In that prime vs prime battle, White seems to have the worst of it. He has 2 men on the bar, he's not at the edge of Black's prime yet and he has the worse timing. The only thing going for him is that his prime is all rolled in his inner board, giving him a stronger board, but right now it could be more a liability than an asset. As White, I would drop that. As Black, I would hesitate between cashing now and waiting a little, trying to go for the gammon if White crunches, and double later if things go worse. In the end, I think I would double. (b) (1) I don't want to break my 5-prime to make my 2-pt, so I hesitate between running the back man and hitting. Hitting would hurt White's timing, but Black's as well. Escaping seems the hardest thing to do and it would help my timing, so I go with that. Now with the deuce, I'll keep running to the 16-pt, since it gives me better hitting chances next roll and 7/5 doesn't do anything constructive anyway. (2) Same as (1), one pip farther. (3) I don't think slotting the 3-pt is the right strategy because it's not that easy to cover it next roll without giving away the 8-pt, so I go with 18/11. (4) Even if 8/3 8/4 is tempting, I don't want to give White the opportunity to enter at the edge of our prime AND hit us at the same time since we might be on the bar for a while. Therefore, I play 18/9. (a) Double / Drop (b) (1) 24/16 (2) 24/15 (3) 18/11 (4) 18/9
 12-02-2010, 02:51 PM #18 Aaron W. Carpal \'Tunnel   Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 29,372 Re: Problem of the Week #86: November 29 Last week, I thought it was too good, and I still think it's too good. If it's not too good, it's because white's spare on the 10 point gives him enough time to escape his back checkers if they come in on the 1/2 points. And if moving that spare up to white home board doesn't make it too good, then I guess I don't really understand this at all. 62 - Hit white's checker at steal away his timing. 63 - 7/1 to cover the ace point, the 18/15 to bring the third checker into a direct shot. 43 - Trading one point for two with two on the bar. This does open up 55 as a joker, and that's a huge price to pay. It's not as if that will be a short term joker, but it's a long term one. Because of that, I play 18/11. 54 - 7/2 18/14. Cover one of the points and move into range to pick off the third checker.
12-06-2010, 10:19 AM   #20
uberkuber
veteran

Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,216
Re: Problem of the Week #86: November 29

Just fixing a couple of typos...

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Taper_Mike On a 6-5, he should cover twice inside, making a five-point board. The alternative, 24/18, 5/2 is not bad either, [...]
I guess you meant 24/18 7/2.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Taper_Mike The third alternative, 13/10*, [...]
I guess you meant 18/10*.

 12-06-2010, 10:43 AM #21 loveinvain veteran   Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 2,143 Re: Problem of the Week #86: November 29 Looking forward to seeing the solution to this one. I guess I'm way off with my answers since not one person seems to be on the same wavelength as me re. the answers. I am still surprised how many are answering: (3) 4-3: 5/1, 5/2 I just can't believe this is correct.
12-06-2010, 06:10 PM   #22
Taper_Mike

Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,030
Re: Problem of the Week #86: November 29

Quote:
 Originally Posted by loveinvain I am still surprised how many are answering: (3) 4-3: 5/1, 5/2 I just can't believe this is correct.
It may be the best of a bad lot. When there is a reasonable alternative, as with the 5-4, those who are posting prefer not to abandon the prime. My guess is they are right (and I am wrong!).

BTW: Thanks, Uberkuber, for the fixes.

Last edited by Taper_Mike; 12-06-2010 at 06:18 PM.

 12-07-2010, 04:19 AM #23 kruidenbuiltje journeyman   Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Netherlands Posts: 264 Re: Problem of the Week #86: November 29 I am trying to use the rules according to problem 85 b1) 18x10 (the second rule since its harder than rule 1, see rule 5) 2)24/18/15 (the first rule) 3) 7/3 18/15 (the third rule) 4) 8/3 7/3 (the third rule) a) DP although it seems there are a lot of gammons, there are also lots of situations where white hits and gets an anchor. So it doesnt seem to good to double to me.

 Thread Tools Display Modes Linear Mode

 Posting Rules You may not post new threads You may not post replies You may not post attachments You may not edit your posts BB code is On Smilies are On [IMG] code is On HTML code is Off Forum Rules
 Forum Jump User Control Panel Private Messages Subscriptions Who's Online Search Forums Forums Home Links to Popular Forums     News, Views, and Gossip     Beginners Questions     Marketplace & Staking     Casino & Cardroom Poker     Internet Poker     NL Strategy Forums     Poker Goals & Challenges     Las Vegas Lifestyle     Sporting Events     Other Other Topics Two Plus Two     About the Forums     Two Plus Two Magazine Forum     The Best of Two Plus Two Marketplace & Staking     Commercial Marketplace     General Marketplace     Staking - Offering Stakes     Staking         Staking - Offering Stakes         Staking - Seeking Stakes         Staking - Selling Shares - Online         Staking - Selling Shares - Live         Staking Rails         Transaction Feedback & Disputes     Transaction Feedback & Disputes Coaching & Training     Coaching Advice     Cash Game Poker Coach Listings     Tournament/SNG Poker Coach Listings Poker News & Discussion     News, Views, and Gossip     Poker Goals & Challenges     Poker Beats, Brags, and Variance     That's What She Said!     Poker Legislation & PPA Discussion hosted by Rich Muny     Twitch - Watch and Discuss Live Online Poker     Televised Poker General Poker Strategy     Beginners Questions     Books and Publications     Poker Tells/Behavior, hosted by: Zachary Elwood     Poker Theory     Psychology No Limit Hold'em Strategy     Medium-High Stakes PL/NL     Micro-Small Stakes PL/NL     Medium-High Stakes Full Ring     Micro-Small Stakes Full Ring     Heads Up NL     Live Low-stakes NL Limit Texas Hold'em Strategy     Mid-High Stakes Limit     Micro-Small Stakes Limit Tournament Poker Strategy     STT Strategy     Heads Up SNG and Spin and Gos     Mid-High Stakes MTT     Small Stakes MTT     MTT Community     Tournament Events Other Poker Strategy     High Stakes PL Omaha     Small Stakes PL Omaha     Omaha/8     Stud     Draw and Other Poker Live Poker     Casino & Cardroom Poker         Venues & Communities         Regional Communities     Venues & Communities     Tournament Events         WPT.com     Home Poker     Cash Strategy     Tournament Strategy Internet Poker     Internet Poker         Global Poker         MPN – Microgaming Poker Network         BetOnline.ag Online Poker     Commercial Software     Software         Commercial Software         Free Software General Gambling     Backgammon Forum hosted by Bill Robertie.     Probability     Sports Betting     Other Gambling Games 2+2 Communities     Other Other Topics         OOTV         Game of Thrones     The Lounge: Discussion+Review     EDF     Las Vegas Lifestyle     BBV4Life         omg omg omg     House of Blogs Sports and Games     Sporting Events         Single-Team Season Threads         Fantasy Sports     Fantasy Sports         Sporting Events     Wrestling     Golf     Chess and Other Board Games     Video Games         League of Legends         Hearthstone     Puzzles and Other Games Other Topics     Politics and Society     Playground: Well Named Loves Social Science     History     Business, Finance, and Investing     Science, Math, and Philosophy     Religion, God, and Theology     Travel     Health and Fitness     Laughs or Links!     Computer Technical Help     Programming

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:03 AM.

 Contact Us - Two Plus Two Publishing LLC - Privacy Statement - Top