Open Side Menu Go to the Top
Register
Problem of the Week #20: July 19 Problem of the Week #20: July 19

07-21-2009 , 02:12 PM
Problem of the Week #20: July 19


Cash game. Center cube. Black on roll.



Part (a): Black to play 5-2.




Part (b): Black to play 4-2.
Problem of the Week #20: July 19 Quote
07-21-2009 , 06:34 PM
The easiest one is part b, hitting on the ace point and using the tempo to move up the back checker. (23-21 5/1*), but I like the juxtaposition of both of these as the idea of tempo-creating hits is very important.

While it is obviously far more crucial in a critical position such as part b, gaining tempo is also a very valuable asset in the opening. Certainly in position a there is nothing wrong with 24/22 13/8, but you are still responding to whites opening in a passive way, letting him do what he wants, so to speak.
After this play white just proceeds to bring the loose checker in the outfield into the game, or make points, or whatever, and black is left looking for shots or basically playing from behind.

Using the tempo gaining 6-1* with the 5 seizes the initiative while also still splitting the back checkers. If white hits from the bar black almost alwyas anchors up anyway, and if he doesnt then he has to uses half his roll to enter and stalls his development. This is obviously very basic sounding but this is a very good theoretical position which demonstrates how hitting to gain tempo can really dictate the game from a very early spot, and one should not understimate the value of taking the initiative away from the player hwo rolled first.

I really look forwrad to Bill's analysis of this, as this is a very good pair of problems, which are so different yet so similar .
Problem of the Week #20: July 19 Quote
07-21-2009 , 09:57 PM
1) 24/22 13/8. Splitting the back checkers is very clear of course, so the question is whether to use the 5 to play 6/1* or 13/8. I see nothing to recommend the loose hit. It will not disrupt White's plans, nor does Black have any plans which he needs more time to execute. Any roll (except 6-6 obviously) allows White to either hit our blot or to move his own blot to a safe builder position and most hits (1-1, 2-1, 4-1, 5-1) allow him to do both because the 1 is the very number he doesn't want to use to move the blot. Meanwhile Black buries a checker uselessly on the ace point and risks having it sent back and thus getting a substantial deficit in the race, which is currently quite even. A one-pip gain and a brief disruption to White's game can't be worth that.

b) 23/21 5/1*. I assume the point of these problems is to contrast when it is and isn't right to hit loose on the ace point. This situation has a lot of things different to the first problem. Black has a three-point board, for starters. He also has a big problem - the checker trapped behind White's broken prime. Black would like to move up to the 21 point in an attempt to spring his checker, but it's pretty dangerous. Any 3, 4 or 5 hits for White and puts Black in a hurt lock. It's also possible White will point on Black's head, which would be gammon city. By hitting loose Black removes the possibility of White making a point, and cuts down on hitting numbers (things like 6-4 now dance instead of hitting for instance).

If White hits the blot on Black's ace point, all is not lost - on some rolls Black may be able to make an anchor next roll, which would also solve his back man problem.
Problem of the Week #20: July 19 Quote
07-21-2009 , 10:41 PM
i agree on b) with 23/21 5/1*

on a) i think the most important thing is that the whtie blot is on the 10 point, already disconnected from the blot on the 1 point, not on the 7 point where white has a direct number to anchor. if the blot were on the 7 point, im pretty sure 5/1* would be correct as an effort to disconnect the checker on the 1 pt, not really as a tempo play since white doesn't have any huge threats at this point.

so i guess 24/22 13/8
Problem of the Week #20: July 19 Quote
07-22-2009 , 12:08 AM
b) looks completely standard as others have said, 23/21 5/1*. I'm looking for something more subtle here and can't find it. Hero is ahead in the race and behind in timing, so try to escape, and protect your runner by hitting in a position where stealing half a roll is critical, and if you are hit back you are still OK.

a) The obvious play is 13/8 24/22, splitting the back checkers to try to better cover the outfield, given that Villain has sprung a runner. But, 6/1* 13/11 is interesting. Hero is already behind in the race, has 2 runners back vs. 1, and has nothing constructive to do with this roll. So start by hitting with 6/1* and encouraging contact and taking half a roll away from Villain. With the 2, the split to the 3-point is the least appealing of all splits. So play a more active move with the 2, take advantage of duplication of the 1s, bring a builder into play, pressure the outfield blot, and at least cover your side of the board, because you can't effectively cover the other side.

I have no idea which of the three plays is "correct" but I would play 6/1* 13/11 before 6/1* 24/22. Everything else looks like it's lagging behind.
Problem of the Week #20: July 19 Quote
07-22-2009 , 12:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple888
But, 6/1* 13/11 is interesting. Hero is already behind in the race, has 2 runners back vs. 1, and has nothing constructive to do with this roll.
Splitting is extremely constructive. Also Black isn't really behind in the race, a few pips is nothing at this stage.

Quote:
So start by hitting with 6/1* and encouraging contact. With the 2, the split to the 3-point is the least appealing of all splits.
This is one of those random factoids that rarely has any actual impact on what to do.

Quote:
So play a more active move with the 2, take advantage of duplication of the 1s, bring a builder into play, pressure the outfield blot, and at least cover your side of the board, because you can't effectively cover the other side.
Can you give an example of a roll for White other than 6-6 where this "pressure" on the outfield blot is going to matter? White is going to run the blot into a safer position anyway. What you have succeeded in doing with 13/11 is enabling White to safety the blot with any 6 roll. With 24/22, a White roll like 6-3 would have to be played as bar/22 15/9, whereupon the blot would be under a direct shot from your checker on your 22 point.

Quote:
I have no idea which of the three plays is "correct" but I would play 6/1* 13/11 before 6/1* 24/22. Everything else looks like it's lagging behind.
My guess is that 24/22 8/3 is better than 13/11 6/1*. Failing to split is a fairly big mistake. (Both moves will be much worse than the other two candidates)
Problem of the Week #20: July 19 Quote
07-22-2009 , 12:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisV
Splitting is extremely constructive. Also Black isn't really behind in the race, a few pips is nothing at this stage.
A few pips behind AND Villain on roll is a meaningful deficit.

Quote:
This is one of those random factoids that rarely has any actual impact on what to do.
Yes, the quality of outfield coverage is completely irrelevant.

Quote:
Can you give an example of a roll for White other than 6-6 where this "pressure" on the outfield blot is going to matter?
3-3. And 5-5 isn't nearly as bad for Hero. It's a minor consideration anyway. Mostly it's bringing down a builder/attacker.

Quote:
White is going to run the blot into a safer position anyway. What you have succeeded in doing with 13/11 is enabling White to safety the blot with any 6 roll. With 24/22, a White roll like 6-3 would have to be played as bar/22 14/8, whereupon the blot would be under a direct shot from your checker on your 22 point.
Whatever. Just putting it out there, dude. 13/8 24/22 is likely best anyway.
Problem of the Week #20: July 19 Quote
07-22-2009 , 11:43 AM
(b) I agree that 23/21 5/1* looks correct. You want to make your 6 point prime, not let him make his, and try and escape your back checker. This move is certainly going to make him making his prime difficult and set you up to potentially escape your back checker.

(a) I would play 24/22 6/1*. I think the split is obvious just because playing the 2 anywhere else looks terrible to me. I like hitting on the one point because I think that will give you a better chance of establishing a forward anchor and make it harder for him to get his other blot to safety.
Problem of the Week #20: July 19 Quote
07-22-2009 , 06:42 PM
This was an instructive thread just to open my eyes to the possibility of the "obvious" 23/21 5/1* in part b. I was floundering around, debating if 9/3 was better than 23/21 9/5...
Problem of the Week #20: July 19 Quote
07-24-2009 , 11:37 AM
a) I'm in the 13/8 24/22 camp. I don't see much point to hitting but my Dad loves to hit in these positions. I'm pretty confident that the hit is wrong so I'm looking forward to the solution as it will allow me to verify if my instincts are correct.

b) I missed 5/1*, I originally picked 23/21 9/5 but the hit is far superior. Note that it doesn't even matter whether black gets pointed on 21 because if white makes that point, black will be shut out anyway.
Problem of the Week #20: July 19 Quote
07-24-2009 , 01:04 PM
I'm on board with everyone on b) need to move up and hitting seems necessary to prevent white from attacking and 9/5 is cramped anyway.

I like hitting in a) as well though. 13/8 is a bit passive when white is on the verge of escaping a checker, and it does mean, that he can't safety it if he rolls a six. I also don't mind having a third checker sent back if white does escape.
Problem of the Week #20: July 19 Quote
07-24-2009 , 02:51 PM
a) Do a lot of players open with 63 by running? I'd just play 24/22 13/8. Hitting deep on the ace point doesn't seem to be very helpful here. When white re-enters, you're either going to lose 24 pips in the race or you're going to have a moderately useless checker hanging out on your ace point. Neither of those positions sound particularly appealing.

b) I'm with everyone else. Step up with the back checker to ease escaping and hit up front to protect the straggler. You're much happier to make the ace point now that it's later in the game, and while getting hit isn't that good, unless he rolls 21 white is still going to be two rolls from leaping your 5 prime.
Problem of the Week #20: July 19 Quote
07-25-2009 , 10:12 PM
Problem A)

Gee, so many people like 6/1* 24/22. But I Think it is clearly wrong to play 6/1*.

Tempo play? what kind of tempo play? White is not threatening anything, so a tempo play is not in order in my opinion. So all you do is risk yourself getting a checker send back if white rolls a 1 , and if white doesn't roll a 1, you have a dead checker on your one point. 'Lots of risks and no real assets.'

I think 13/8 24/22 is clearly best. If I am wrong I think I will burn my backgammonset and all my books.



Problem B)

In this problem I think the Tempo Play is clearly right.
You have a disconnected checker back on the 23point, it's really important to bring that one home. To do that white has to play 23/21 with the 2 preparing to escape.
Now this checker on the 21 point will be very vulnerable to attack. 33, 34, 35, 44, 45, 22 all make the point on blacks head. that's 9 rolls. To stop white from doing that , black will make the tempo play 5/1* with the 4. White has 11 return hits against that blot, so just two rolls more then the pointmakingnumbers if you wouldn't play the tempoplay. plus it is not so bad to get hit on your 1point as it is to get pointed on the 21point, which is very bad for you.
So i would play 23/22 5/1*

Last edited by Popeye; 07-25-2009 at 10:19 PM.
Problem of the Week #20: July 19 Quote
07-26-2009 , 09:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Popeye
Problem A)

Gee, so many people like 6/1* 24/22. But I Think it is clearly wrong to play 6/1*.

Tempo play? what kind of tempo play? White is not threatening anything, so a tempo play is not in order in my opinion. So all you do is risk yourself getting a checker send back if white rolls a 1 , and if white doesn't roll a 1, you have a dead checker on your one point. 'Lots of risks and no real assets.'

I think 13/8 24/22 is clearly best. If I am wrong I think I will burn my backgammonset and all my books.


*[/B]
I hear alot of "but white isnt threatening anything"...

He is threatening to bring his pieces around the board unchallenged due to his having the first roll. He is threatening to bulid his board and his outfield. While he does not "threaten" any crushing sequence, any time 2 plays are close, you should almost always disrupt the player with the initiative.

Prepare bonfire imo.
Problem of the Week #20: July 19 Quote
07-26-2009 , 12:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheetsworld
I hear alot of "but white isnt threatening anything"...

He is threatening to bring his pieces around the board unchallenged due to his having the first roll. He is threatening to bulid his board and his outfield. While he does not "threaten" any crushing sequence, any time 2 plays are close, you should almost always disrupt the player with the initiative.

Prepare bonfire imo.
sure black would like to hit the white blot on the 10 pt before it can escape, but I would hardly call it a threat. one thing in black's favor is that white can either escape the checker into the outfield or build his board, not both (barring doubles). so when a few double numbers are the only powerful rolls, justifying a loose hit as a tempo play is ridiculous. the only reason to hit in a situation like this is to disconnect white's back blot from the rest of his army, but the back blot is already disconnected from the blot on the 10 pt so a hit is unnecessary. if white had used his opening 6-3 to move 24/18 13/10, then i think 6/1* would be correct in order to make it harder for white to anchor.

Last edited by djk123; 07-26-2009 at 12:49 PM.
Problem of the Week #20: July 19 Quote
07-27-2009 , 10:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by djk123
sure black would like to hit the white blot on the 10 pt before it can escape, but I would hardly call it a threat. one thing in black's favor is that white can either escape the checker into the outfield or build his board, not both (barring doubles). so when a few double numbers are the only powerful rolls, justifying a loose hit as a tempo play is ridiculous. the only reason to hit in a situation like this is to disconnect white's back blot from the rest of his army, but the back blot is already disconnected from the blot on the 10 pt so a hit is unnecessary. if white had used his opening 6-3 to move 24/18 13/10, then i think 6/1* would be correct in order to make it harder for white to anchor.
Almost worth buying snowie again to roll this one out...almost.
Problem of the Week #20: July 19 Quote

      
m