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Pip counts - how often? Pip counts - how often?

04-09-2009 , 11:45 AM
I've read that "every move is a doubling decision". Does this mean I literally have to know the pip-count before every single roll? Or do good players tend to wait until there are other positional elements/threats which lean towards doubling and only then make an accurate pip-count?

I ask because as a beginner I'm finding this process rather difficult, and the thought of having to do it on every move would seriously affect my enjoyment of the game. Having said that, I'm willing to put the time in if necessary if that is what's required.

Thanks
Pip counts - how often? Quote
04-09-2009 , 07:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomdeplume
I've read that "every move is a doubling decision". Does this mean I literally have to know the pip-count before every single roll? Or do good players tend to wait until there are other positional elements/threats which lean towards doubling and only then make an accurate pip-count?
After awhile you get a feel for when you need to keep a count. Just having a general idea if you are ahead, way ahead, behind, or way behind in positions where there is still a lot of engagement is probably enough. The first time I actually take a hard count, is when there is a roll available which could turn the position into a pure race. If someone were to roll big doubles for example and run, I want to know what the count is. Until late in the end game, you really just need to know when someone has a 10% lead. Get in the habit of counting pips when your opponent pauses to do the same. When you are holding the cube and you already know you need big doubles to catch up, you don't really need to take another count until you get them or your opponent can't bear two off with a certain roll. Those are just a few shortcuts, but there really is no substitute for practicing the mental arithmetic.
Pip counts - how often? Quote
04-10-2009 , 03:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cashedout
After awhile you get a feel for when you need to keep a count. Just having a general idea if you are ahead, way ahead, behind, or way behind in positions where there is still a lot of engagement is probably enough. The first time I actually take a hard count, is when there is a roll available which could turn the position into a pure race.
Ok thanks. So this would seem to imply that in the main, the pip-count is used in non-contact positions where the two sides are just racing? Is that assumption correct?

In the beginner's books I'm reading they talk about using the mnemonic PRAT (position, race and threats). Where does this come into it? Obviously it must be used in contact positions because otherwise positional elements and threats are irrelevant. But should I only worry about the pip-count if it seems that one side has an advantage in either position or threats?

Sorry, I'm kind of rambling here, but I'm a bit confused as to the thinking process involved on each move.

Quote:
If someone were to roll big doubles for example and run, I want to know what the count is. Until late in the end game, you really just need to know when someone has a 10% lead. Get in the habit of counting pips when your opponent pauses to do the same. When you are holding the cube and you already know you need big doubles to catch up, you don't really need to take another count until you get them or your opponent can't bear two off with a certain roll.
These are all very useful tips, thanks.
Pip counts - how often? Quote
04-10-2009 , 04:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomdeplume
In the beginner's books I'm reading they talk about using the mnemonic PRAT (position, race and threats). Where does this come into it? Obviously it must be used in contact positions because otherwise positional elements and threats are irrelevant. But should I only worry about the pip-count if it seems that one side has an advantage in either position or threats?
Your count in the race is always important. I just don't go to the extreme of figuring it out when there is plenty of contact remaining unless for tactical reasons I believe the position is near a cube decision. I'm guessing the author is presenting the concepts of position, race, and threats together because they all affect the take, drop and offer cube decisions. Once you've played several hundred games, you get to know what sort of positions can lead to one side defending against being gammoned, and avoid being too quick to accept the cube. I believe the most serious error that inexperienced players make is taking the cube in positions which can quickly lead to gammon. Positional elements can sometimes be the critical factor in pure race conditions too. The smoothness of your inner board compared to your opponent, and the whether you have points filled behind empty ones are often more important than the who leads by how much in pips.
Pip counts - how often? Quote
04-10-2009 , 01:46 PM
Get in the habit of doing a pip count whenever you're thinking of doubling. There are a lot of middle game positions where a big racing lead is enough to turn a small positional advantage into a good double.

Obviously, you also want to do a pip count when your opponent doubles you. Pip count is always a factor, sometimes a big factor and sometimes a small factor.

Having done a pip count, you might then decide to keep a running count for awhile. You were up 10, you didn't double, then you rolled 9 pips, so now you're up 19, then he rolled 8, so now you're up 11, that sort of thing. A running count is easy and will save you a lot of energy.
Pip counts - how often? Quote
04-10-2009 , 02:45 PM
Quote:
Having done a pip count, you might then decide to keep a running count for awhile. You were up 10, you didn't double, then you rolled 9 pips, so now you're up 19, then he rolled 8, so now you're up 11, that sort of thing. A running count is easy and will save you a lot of energy.
Wow, this never even occurred to me. I REALLY like this idea since it has to be a lot simpler than working out a full pip-count all the time, and I could use the information this gives to aid some checker decisions. My question would be how do you know how many points ahead you need to be to consider doubling, given that you don't know the actual pip-count?

BTW, I just want to say how great it is for a newb like me to ask questions and have them answered by one of the strongest players in the world I've just ordered your book "Backgammon for Winners" on the back of a recommendation in an earlier post, and I'm looking forward to reading it.
Pip counts - how often? Quote
04-10-2009 , 06:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomdeplume
My question would be how do you know how many points ahead you need to be to consider doubling, given that you don't know the actual pip-count?
In a race position if you don't keep count (at the very least do stop to count after someone gets an obviously good roll to catch up or take the lead), you are giving away too much of an advantage to someone who will make the good cube decisions. It's enough of an edge that if I see my opponent is not keeping count, I will play in such a way as to favor getting to race positions even if I may be making a move which I know is second best. For instance, I will choose to run instead of slot my opponent's five point with an opening 5-4 to take advantage of this.

In contact positions, and particularly with back checkers starting to get blocked from running, the actual pip count is less of a concern than trying to assess the prospects for gammon or the chances of one side coming back to redouble. Playing the software will give you a feel for when you should be thinking about the cube, and the correct play against a strong opponent. It doesn't teach you how to maximize your profit against a weak player. For example, you won't get a correct opportunity to beaver the machine. You also won't be adjusting for situations when you decide not to double to compensate for your opponent's tendencies to accept too often. There are plenty of doubling positions which might be deferred until the next roll if your opponent accepts the cube too much, even though you could get one of your best rolls and end up with a position where you wish you had.
Pip counts - how often? Quote
04-10-2009 , 08:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomdeplume
Wow, this never even occurred to me. I REALLY like this idea since it has to be a lot simpler than working out a full pip-count all the time, and I could use the information this gives to aid some checker decisions. My question would be how do you know how many points ahead you need to be to consider doubling, given that you don't know the actual pip-count?

BTW, I just want to say how great it is for a newb like me to ask questions and have them answered by one of the strongest players in the world I've just ordered your book "Backgammon for Winners" on the back of a recommendation in an earlier post, and I'm looking forward to reading it.
When you originally did the pip count, you found out what the totals were. Now you know your lead and you know that the totals have gone down by some amount. Generally this will tell you if an action should be considered, at which point you might stop and do an accurate count again.

For instance, you found that your lead was 100 to 104, so you only lead by 4% and thus didn't double. Then by two moves later you rolled well and now your lead is 10. You don't know the exact counts but you no longer need to; your lead is big enough to have been a good double two moves ago, so it must be a good double now. This sort of thing happens all the time.
Pip counts - how often? Quote

      
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