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05-14-2015 , 04:35 AM
I always seem to get these wrong, every move a blunder...

The hit looks good, but then if white throws 2,6 we're toast with 2 checkers hit and a whole bunch more about to be hit on his next throw.

I'm thinking this might be safety first with 16/8.

If he doesn't throw a 5 we'll be looking ok as he moves off the 20 and 21 points. If he does throw a 5 we can hope to hit him. Only 5,3 is a problem.
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05-14-2015 , 10:13 AM
Obviously the choice is whether to hit or cover. I'm always a fan of hitting, and in this case we have the 8 and 4 points ready to cover on the following throw, so look likely to get a 5 prime if we survive white's roll. However, even getting a 5 prime isn't going to help us much, white will eventually roll a 1 and a 6 and be off, and we are way behind in the count. That logic also applies to the cover though - white can roll a 5 and be off and running, although I suppose we have the ammo in the outfield to hopefully hit him somewhere...

Taking all that, I think we have to hit. We need to prime white, and it will be easier to do it while he is on the bar, as well as less risky. Although hitting denies us the chance to catch another blot if he rolls a 2... Sigh.

10/2*
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05-14-2015 , 04:47 PM
My default in these sorts of positions to hit first, and ask questions later. If Black hit, and White could not hit the return shot, Black would have a double-direct shot to complete a five-board board.

In this position, however, I am inclined not to hit. There is a safe play, 16/8, that locks White behind a broken five-point block. If White rolls the 5 to escape, Black will usually get one or more direct shots in the outfield. In the more likely circumstance that White fails to escape, things shift decidedly in Blacks favor. For one thing, White's non-doublet 2s force him to expose a second blot, but even without that, Black would have plenty of attacking options. Black would also have many ways increase his outfield presence.

The other reason I don't think Black should hit is because White will be positioned to escape when he hits the return shot. Black would then be on the spot to come up with a good throw almost immediately.

Mike

Last edited by Taper_Mike; 05-14-2015 at 04:54 PM.
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05-15-2015 , 12:24 PM

Code:
   move 1. 16/8                         Eq.:  +0,700 
       0,792 0,248 0,012 - 0,208 0,065 0,000 CL  +0,778 CF  +0,700 
      
   move 2. 10/2*                        Eq.:  +0,575 ( -0,125) 
       0,778 0,202 0,008 - 0,222 0,108 0,002 CL  +0,656 CF  +0,575
For both moves white has one crucial number, namely 5 for move 1 and 2 for move 2.
After problem 24 you are inclined to think that a 26 double hit for white will pull the trigger, but this is fallacious. As a matter of fact a 53 for white is more detrimental for black relatively speaking:

white throws 26
after move 1:
Code:
 bar/23*                      Eq.:  -0,693
       0,210 0,080 0,001 - 0,790 0,263 0,012 CL  -0,774 CF  -0,693
after move 2:
Code:
 bar/23*/17*                  Eq.:  +0,571
       0,527 0,423 0,012 - 0,473 0,071 0,002 CL  +0,415 CF  +0,571
white throws 53
after move 1:
Code:
 23/15*                       Eq.:  -0,117
       0,444 0,243 0,002 - 0,556 0,089 0,003 CL  +0,041 CF  -0,117
after move 2:
Code:
white does not enter	Eq.: -1,634
(There is no hint window for this situation. But when I put the cube in the middle while white is on the bar, the cube decision is: Double, take +1,634)

It's clear that the difference for the two moves is a lot greater in the case of 53.

removing any gap:


Code:
    1. 16/8                         Eq.:  +0,334
       0,713 0,044 0,000 - 0,287 0,073 0,000 CL  +0,398 CF  +0,334
     
    2. 10/2*                        Eq.:  +0,281 ( -0,051)
       0,719 0,044 0,000 - 0,281 0,144 0,000 CL  +0,337 CF  +0,281
The equity difference was 0,125 and is now 0,051. It shows that more than half of the difference is due to the gap.

Here with a 1-board:


Code:
    1. 10/2*                        Eq.:  +0,499
       0,798 0,042 0,000 - 0,202 0,101 0,000 CL  +0,538 CF  +0,499
     
    2. 16/8                         Eq.:  +0,475 ( -0,024)
       0,782 0,041 0,000 - 0,218 0,087 0,000 CL  +0,518 CF  +0,475
Black can move the rest of the game without any resistance. Hitting is now better (-0,051 vs +0,024), which shows the value of the 3-board.

Conclusion:
It's better not to hit, because of two equally important reasons:
– white has got a 3-board, and not being able to enter after a hit could proof fatal, not in the least because of black's blot on the 8-point
– if white is not on the bar, he not only might leave a second blot, but his homeboard can shrink from 3 points to 2 points

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05-16-2015 , 07:57 PM
Here is a trio of related positions. As you go from one problem to the next, the rear checker moves forward 1 pip. Everything else stays the same.


Problem 27a. Black to Play 6-2
White - Pips 52

Black - Pips 48

Unlimited game, no Jacoby, no beavers.
XGID=-FCC--A--A--A------cacccb-:1:1:1:62:0:0:0:0:10


Problem 27b. Black to Play 6-2
White - Pips 52

Black - Pips 47

Unlimited game, no Jacoby, no beavers.
XGID=-FCC--A--A-A-------cacccb-:1:1:1:62:0:0:0:0:10


Problem 27c. Black to Play 6-2
White - Pips 52

Black - Pips 46

Unlimited game, no Jacoby, no beavers.
XGID=-FCC--A--AA--------cacccb-:1:1:1:62:0:0:0:0:10


Mike
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05-17-2015 , 03:12 AM
I don't see a reason not to play to the 4-point in the three problems. Putting two checkers on the 4-point (c) is bad in case of 21 and 65.

I can't imagine you lose much equity by playing this wrongly.
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05-17-2015 , 07:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yogiman
is bad in case of 21 and 65
I could do better.
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05-17-2015 , 11:09 AM
Im courious to know if i can learn something new from these positions. Clearly my move in every position is to play 6 with the back check to get it in and the 2 with the remaining back check...
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05-17-2015 , 01:13 PM
I have no idea what the correct theory is here, but I would not use the 2 to move off the 9 point. That checker is so close to home it seems a waste.
So:
12/4
11/5 6/4
10/4 6/4
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05-18-2015 , 01:30 AM
I'm playing the same as Kamba, operating off the theory that no matter what dice we get on the next throw, we have all our checkers in, so it's best to set the pieces up for an easier bear-off.
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05-18-2015 , 05:16 PM
Well done by everyone! No one was fooled by these positions. I thought by including three variants, some might err by falling into the trap of thinking there was some quiz factor. There is no quiz factor here. Playing 6/4 with the 2 is correct in all three positions. As the following rollouts show, playing 9/7 is quite a large error. The comments following the rollouts explain some of the reasons why the error is so big.


Problem 27a. Black to Play 6-2
White - Pips 52

Black - Pips 48

Unlimited game, no Jacoby, no beavers.
Code:
XGID=-FCC--A--A--A------cacccb-:1:1:1:62:0:0:0:0:10

X:Player 1   O:Player 2
Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
Pip count  X: 48  O: 52 X-O: 0-0
Cube: 2, X own cube
X to play 62

    1. Rollout¹    12/4              eq:-0.0366
      Player:   41.69% (G:0.00% B:0.00%)
      Opponent: 58.31% (G:0.00% B:0.00%)
      Confidence: ±0.0014 (-0.0380..-0.0351) - [100.0%]

    2. Rollout¹    12/6 9/7          eq:-0.1433 (-0.1067)
      Player:   37.26% (G:0.00% B:0.00%)
      Opponent: 62.74% (G:0.00% B:0.00%)
      Confidence: ±0.0013 (-0.1446..-0.1419) - [0.0%]

¹  5184 Games rolled with Variance Reduction.
   Dice Seed: 5613244
   Moves: 3-ply, cube decisions: XG Roller

Rollout by Taper_Mike
2015-May-16
eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.10.199.2658
OpenYourMind.027a-tm.xgp

Problem 27b. Black to Play 6-2
White - Pips 52

Black - Pips 47

Unlimited game, no Jacoby, no beavers.
Code:
XGID=-FCC--A--A-A-------cacccb-:1:1:1:62:0:0:0:0:10

X:Player 1   O:Player 2
Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
Pip count  X: 47  O: 52 X-O: 0-0
Cube: 2, X own cube
X to play 62

    1. Rollout¹    11/5 6/4          eq:+0.1062
      Player:   47.74% (G:0.00% B:0.00%)
      Opponent: 52.26% (G:0.00% B:0.00%)
      Confidence: ±0.0015 (+0.1047..+0.1078) - [100.0%]

    2. Rollout¹    11/5 9/7          eq:-0.0039 (-0.1101)
      Player:   43.07% (G:0.00% B:0.00%)
      Opponent: 56.93% (G:0.00% B:0.00%)
      Confidence: ±0.0015 (-0.0054..-0.0025) - [0.0%]

¹  5184 Games rolled with Variance Reduction.
   Dice Seed: 5613244
   Moves: 3-ply, cube decisions: XG Roller

Rollout by Taper_Mike
2015-May-16
eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.10.199.2658
OpenYourMind.027b-tm.xgp

Problem 27c. Black to Play 6-2
White - Pips 52

Black - Pips 46

Unlimited game, no Jacoby, no beavers.
Code:
XGID=-FCC--A--AA--------cacccb-:1:1:1:62:0:0:0:0:10

X:Player 1   O:Player 2
Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
Pip count  X: 46  O: 52 X-O: 0-0
Cube: 2, X own cube
X to play 62

    1. Rollout¹    10/4 6/4          eq:+0.1461
      Player:   49.31% (G:0.00% B:0.00%)
      Opponent: 50.69% (G:0.00% B:0.00%)
      Confidence: ±0.0016 (+0.1446..+0.1477) - [100.0%]

    2. Rollout¹    10/4 9/7          eq:+0.0761 (-0.0700)
      Player:   46.30% (G:0.00% B:0.00%)
      Opponent: 53.70% (G:0.00% B:0.00%)
      Confidence: ±0.0015 (+0.0746..+0.0776) - [0.0%]

¹  5184 Games rolled with Variance Reduction.
   Dice Seed: 5613244
   Moves: 3-ply, cube decisions: XG Roller

Rollout by Taper_Mike
2015-May-16
eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.10.199.2658
OpenYourMind.027c-tm.xgp

I wrote the following comments while looking at Problem 27b, but tailored them, for the most part, so that they apply to the other problems as well.

In all three of these positions, White is going have a head start in the bear off. His is not in a no-miss situation, but going first will give him an advantage. His 5pt is the weak spot. The first time he rolls a 5 it becomes a gap. The second time, he can play 6/1, using his “free play.” Because White has to bear off an odd number of checkers, he does not have to bear off two checkers on every roll. He has one “free play” where he can bear off just one, without adding a roll to the total needed to win the game. It is the third 5 that might cause a problem for White. If he still has a checker on his 6pt by then, he will waste half a roll. Otherwise, he is looking pretty good.

In practice, White will often need to use his “free roll” somewhere else, so he will miss more often than the foregoing paragraph describes. Nevertheless, he is still in pretty good shape.

After this roll, Black will still have one checker outside. Barring doublets, he will only bear off one checker on the next turn. White will most likely then bear off two, giving him a total of four checkers off. White will probably miss sooner or later, so Black will often catch up, but the game is still up for grabs. Black needs to be ready to play his doublets efficiently when they come.

So what about 55? Look what happens when he is lucky enough to roll this doublet. If Black plays 9/7 in any of these positions, a subsequent 55 would then bear off one checker less than Black would have gotten after playing 6/4! Scroll back up, and take a look. Moving off the 6pt now avoids the necessity of having to play 6/1 with one of the fives when 55 is the next roll.

Among non-doublets, 43, 42, and 41 stand out. After playing 9/7 on this turn, any one of them would require Black to use the 4 moving in from the 7pt on the next turn, so that he could bear off a checker with the 1, 2, or 3. The resulting position would leave Black with a checker on his 6pt, and one or more gaps on his 4pt and 5pt.

Compare this with how a 4 plays after moving 6/4 on this turn. In all three positions, the 4 would be used to bring home the last checker, 9/5, and then the small number, 1, 2, or 3, would be played bearing off a checker. One of the gaps mentioned above will have been moved to the 6pt, where it is not a gap at all!

A similar thing happens when Black next rolls 62 or 61. After playing 6/4 on this turn, a 6 on the next turn would be played coming home, 9/3, resulting in a position where a “gap” has been moved from the 4pt or 5pt to the 6pt.

I could go on. When the next roll is 53, for instance, Black is usually better off using the 5 to move 9/4 so that he can bear off from the 3pt.

The only real disadvantage to playing 6/4 occurs when Black rolls 21 or 11 on the following turn. With 21, he is stuck using the entire roll to bring home his checker on the 9pt, and cannot bear off any checkers. When he rolls 11, he can only bear off one checker instead of 3.

Mike

Last edited by Taper_Mike; 05-18-2015 at 05:30 PM.
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05-19-2015 , 04:33 AM
Interesting analysis btw
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05-20-2015 , 02:52 AM
Position ID: mK+FCCSwuwcBSA Match ID: cAkJAAAAAAAE

White - Pips 145

Black - Pips 142
Black to Play 2-2
Created with www.BGdiagram.com
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05-20-2015 , 05:32 AM
This one has me very confused. All those guys waiting to be hit seems to suggest hitting on the 9 point is correct, then moving 8/6.
I somehow think that making the 4 point might be right here, but i couldn't say why.

I think otb i would play:

B/23 8/4 6/4
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05-20-2015 , 07:44 AM
Given all the white blots lying about, I would be tempted to try something strange here, 5/3 (2)* 3/1 (2)*

We have two guys on the bar, and 4 blots waiting to go there, with a variety of rolls that hit. We also have ammo galore to build points in our base.

I'm a bit terrified to suggest the move, it is not something that I recall seeing XG do, although I think this is an unusual situation.

EDIT - ah, it's not even legal, probably why I have not seen XG play this way... time for a rethink...

ok, same principle applies: B/2 7/1, hitting all the way...
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05-20-2015 , 08:59 AM
sounds about right, we can't allow white to block us time to go medieval on his ***
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05-20-2015 , 10:00 AM
Interesting position.

With White hving six blots around, I think top priority is to make sure he has no time to consolidate. I'd play Bar/23 7/3*/1*, and then be prepared to double next turn after everything except a perfecta.
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05-20-2015 , 12:22 PM
Grunch.

B/23 13/9* 8/6

I prefer that to making the 4-pt now since there's a decent chance I will be able to make a 5-prime anyway.

Edit: Damn, was too anxious to answer, didn't even consider B/23 7/3*/1*.

Last edited by uberkuber; 05-20-2015 at 12:25 PM. Reason: Damn!
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05-20-2015 , 12:30 PM
Why not get the same thing with less risk? B/23 13/9* 7/5: tons of builder, only 4shot that hit back... Ok opponent may anchor but how can he take after our double next turn? He has no midpoint and he is scattered around..
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05-20-2015 , 01:09 PM
This problem is a great example of the biggest source of checker play errors -- not considering all the reasonable plays. Look for everything that's plausible first, then start to prune the list.
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05-20-2015 , 03:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robertie
This problem is a great example of the biggest source of checker play errors -- not considering all the reasonable plays. Look for everything that's plausible first, then start to prune the list.
Agreed. Once you see the double-hit, it's hard to see anything else. I don't think this one is close.

I sometimes add comments to the analysis of matches I have played. My most frequent comment is an embarrassing admission that I had not even considered the best move!

Mike
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05-20-2015 , 08:19 PM
i love the double hit here, too juicy to pass up.
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05-21-2015 , 10:40 AM


Code:
    1. bar/23 7/3*/1*               Eq.:  +0,888
       0,671 0,407 0,102 - 0,329 0,093 0,006 CL  +0,752 CF  +0,888
      
    2. bar/23 13/9* 7/5             Eq.:  +0,646 ( -0,243)
       0,638 0,280 0,039 - 0,362 0,096 0,005 CL  +0,495 CF  +0,646
      
    3. bar/23 8/4 6/4               Eq.:  +0,621 ( -0,267)
       0,636 0,245 0,020 - 0,364 0,102 0,005 CL  +0,430 CF  +0,621
I can't blame Taper_Mike that medieval butchery was not among his options. But just be aware that this is backgammon for blots, instead of for blood. Not only gammons, but also backgammons lie up for grabs here.

Also in case the number of blots is reduced, it is not wrong to blitz play.




Code:
    1. bar/23 7/3*/1*               Eq.:  +0,328
       0,553 0,257 0,022 - 0,447 0,131 0,008 CL  +0,245 CF  +0,328
   
    2. bar/23 13/9*/7               Eq.:  +0,273 ( -0,055)
       0,559 0,184 0,011 - 0,441 0,116 0,005 CL  +0,192 CF  +0,273



Code:
1. bar/23 13/9*/7               Eq.:  +0,680
       0,651 0,245 0,020 - 0,349 0,090 0,003 CL  +0,472 CF  +0,680
      
2. bar/23 7/3*/1*               Eq.:  +0,645 ( -0,035)
       0,631 0,307 0,029 - 0,369 0,113 0,007 CL  +0,479 CF  +0,645
Open your mind Quote
05-22-2015 , 08:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yogiman
I can't blame Taper_Mike that medieval butchery was not among his options. But just be aware that this is backgammon for blots, instead of for blood. Not only gammons, but also backgammons lie up for grabs here.
The original position shows center cube and no match score. Ergo I assume that this is money/jacoby, hence no gammons.
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05-23-2015 , 11:45 AM
In the first post of this thread I listed the specifications. Are you serious or do you have a very short memory, because in post 8 you correctly put my attention to a typing error.
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