Hi all,

I've been off the forum for a while and I almost abandoned backgammon until I found this beautiful backgammon site: Backgammon Galaxy.

I briefly want to summarize why it's simply perfect for me:

1) Smart and logical rating system: you earn ELO point if and only if you play better (according to XG) and you actually win the match, of course you lose point if and only if you play worse and you actually lose the game. Otherwise NO RATING CHANGE. This completely clears off the tilting factor, because if you lose you are punished only if you played worse. I played very calm even when my opponent got tons of jokers, because playing worse he didn't earn anything, and that is what I was looking for.

2) Clock with fast time control (1m + 10s): this is perfect to avoid "deep thinkers" that make a 3 point game last about 30 minutes lol and of course this eliminates the escapers, true plague of backgammon.

Now some questions for who knows the site:

1) If you play from mobile phone you can only play through facebook otherwise no way to make access to the site even with a subscribed nickname. Is this correct?

2) If the previous is correct then: is it possible to have a wider backgammon board on mobile? I can only visualize a small board even if I try to rotate my Iphone. Ok you can still play but sometimes is hard to make a move under time pressure when you have to change dice order (suppose you have to play first 1 and then 4 from the bar is very hard to do). Moreover it makes my eyes crazy and tired after a couple of games. What do you do in such cases?

3) What do you think about the site?

4) Some areas are still under construction: do you know if the work is still going on and if there are some new releases in the next months?

Thanks!

Here lately I have been getting Marc Olsen videos in my youtube feed and decided to give Backgammon Galaxy a try. Seems pretty smooth, I like the blue colors and board layout. I won one match with a 4.76 error rate to my opponents 4.5 error rate, and didn't get any rating points, which is kinda annoying though. This could turn off casual players. I am not sure if I like the notion of "who can play like a bot better" is good as a rating system for backgammon. For instance, you might avoid playing backgames at all costs, because even if you win, you wont get any rating points, because your most likely are gonna have a higher error rate.

My coach teaches me that in spite of PR, sometimes it is right to make the "wrong" play.

For instance, if you give a ND to someone who you think will drop and they do drop, XG will say that is an error, but in game play, I consider that smart play and not an error.

Additionally, in match play if you are too good, but think they will still take, you should send the cube, in spite of XG saying that it is wrong.

Checker play can be considered in the same way. If your opponent will not hit loose in his home board, you can split at will in spite of "coming under the gun" and being the wrong play according to the XG analysis.

That's another flaw with this rating system. I had one game where I had only +512 equity and doubled and my opponent dropped, I got penalized by this rating system for making a doubling mistake, when it could be said that I induced my opponent into making an error. Anyway, very strong opposition on this site. Even players with sub 1500 ratings are very strong as compared to the usual players on backgammon apps.

I haven't yet played on the site, although I've signed up (no option to select Zimbabwe as a country!). My comment is on the video side - these are great, and hearing Marc's clear explanations and thought processes through the moves is fantastic. I hope they continue bringing out more.

Yes but this is an old religion-war: in backgammon you can'y say that you played better because you bluffed your opponent, that is poker, not backgammon.

Otherwise I play at 21 pr and I say: of course I played better because I thoght that here and there my opponent would make the wrong play so it's fine not to play like a bot. This way we aren't going anywhere.

You should play thinking that your opponent never blunders and that's the only correct way to play good backgammon. So it's somewhat "moral" to gain point only when you actually won the game on the board and on the theoretical side (only neutral and objective way to judge one's play) and it's perfectly sound not to lose points when you lose the game but you won the theoretical battle or you opponent played like a beginner but lucked out the dice. This encourage strong player to play weak players and this keep up the site traffic (I have to wait few seconds to get a game) and never make one tilt while losing a game.

I do agree that 1500 players are somewhat very strong compared to gridgammon for instance, but this is perfectly sound again: That kind of players are the ones that have a decent theoretical background (not impressive ok, but decent) and thanks to the rules doesn't suffer of variance and luck. That's simply beautiful

Hi!

To me this is an unfair rating system by design. If a World Class player plays an Intermediate player there will pretty much always be the same outcomes:

WC wins - wins rating points (better PR)
WC loses - doesn't lose anything (better PR)

Intermediate wins - wins nothing (worse PR)
Intermediate loses - loses rating points (worse PR)

There can be rare cases where the WC plays horribly and the Intermediate player plays an epic game but I think the above will be true in 99% of the cases.

This could lead to world class players preying on weaker players and reluctantly plays strong opposition.

I also heard Marc mention that stronger players get better XG evaluation which also seems rather unfair.

Maybe some giants are attracted to a site where they can't lose but I think this is going down the wrong track.

If you want fair I would suggest what has been described as 'The best BG-site ever!' but I'm afraid to do so. Perhaps someone else knows which server that could be? :-)

Best regards,
TP

I have over 50 matches now and I have seen some players resigning in positions where it doesn't make sense to resign. Let's say that your playing a 5 point match and in the first game you hit loose a few times, but quickly end up putting two blots on the bar and end up gammoning your opponent. It makes sense for you opponent to resign the match at this point because he is likely to have "outplayed" you because he really didn't have as many decisions to make as you did. I see players resigning matches all the time when they still have equity due to the fact that they are gambling that they have out played you and won't lose any rating points.

I agree pillow about strong players basically can't lose rating points. Basically a strong player is on a "freeroll" just like in poker. He can draw at the nuts (a win) but won't lose any points if he does lose the match.

I recently joined and I am having a few issues...1) can't select country of origin in my profile, 2) can't join a game (when I try i get a "Game Proposal" window but nowhere to click to access the game)...I can view an existing match however. I messaged BG Galaxy but thought i would post here as well ... thx

Sometimes the site will glitch and it won't let you login or do anything.

I think the rating system is consistent. First I had the same concern as Pillowfighter: When I only play intermediate or weak players, my rating will increase forever. But this is not true.

E.g. it happened that I played a 7-pointer against someone 500 points below me, and I lost the match. And my PR was worse than his. This cost me more than 30 rating points (had I won the match with a better PR, I would have gained ~8 points to my rating).

Actually I am at 2250 and want to reach the 2300, but that's not easy. The simple recipe 'just play weaker players' does not work.

I guess it won't work well for everyone and the higher your average PR is the harder it is to ensure that you're playing someone with a much higher average PR.

Rating in itself won't reveal the average PR of your opponent (I see there is a guy called Falafel with 1413 in rating...). A world class player may have just signed up and you won't be able to tell.

If the system prevents you from playing anybody below say 500 rating points of your rating then that would ensure that you have to deliver against stronger players too (or at least increase the chance). Perhaps that is the case? Can't find any documentation on the rating system.

It appears that is the most modern site but of course I am rookie.

Another thing cool about this site is that if you can get your rating to the 1750-1800+ range often times you can get matches against players in the 2300+ range, which would probably be around 2600 elo in chess terms IMO.

The rating system on Galaxy completely fixes that. If you make a bluff double and your opponent bites (or a bluff.. too good and the takes).. you will be hit with a small error.. but they are hit with the size of your error PLUS the difference in equity of what the "optimal" play was.

So yes you are rewarded by making your opponent play weaker.

Someone mentioned.. that you shouldn't play backgames because you will not be able to outplay your opponent.. that makes no sense. If you can not outplay your opponent in backgames.. then why not play a simpler game. If is hard to defend a backgame as well. More often than not.. both error ratings suffer.

I've just discovered Bg Galaxy and I love it! Exactly this thing with the rating being updated only if you win AND play better (or, of course, lose AND play worse).

Just to answer some other posters: if I make a 0.05 error by doubling and after that my opponent makes a 0.45 error by dropping the cube - my play was smart and of course I get the better PR from this exchange.

The same goes if I err (by 0.15) by putting a blot in the opponent board, thereby inducing an error (of 0.35) of not "hitting loose". Those "bad plays" only work when the opponent makes the "even worse play" after that - and you also get the better PR.

Resigning (where you still have considerable equity - for example, at the very start of the game when the score is 0:4 Crawford against you) is the worst mistake of all, and will surely give you a horrible PR. Why give your opponent chances to win rating? Better to play that game - who knows, you might even win the match.

- - - - - - -

I'm pretty sure that the person who played with the better PR is the better player (in that match). Even if on occasion strong players disagree with the bots on what is the best move in a given position - such disagreements typically occur when the computer gives their move a 0.01 or 0.04 error - and those don't affect the PR so much.

Several things I would love to see on Bg Galaxy:

1) A tournament time control (2m + 12)

2) The movement of the opponent pieces (the position simply gets updated with his move, and I'm sometimes like, "wait, what just happened here"? especially when he rolled doubles and played on different parts of the board.

3) A solution for cases where PR is close: If I win and my PR is 4.75, while my opponent played at PR 4.5, I should still receive points.

I would suggest a formula for this, where X is the "normal rating change" for that win, U is the updated rating change and D is the PR difference -

Where D<3, U=X * ((3-D)/3). If my rating had to rise by 30 - I would get 30 points if my opponent played at the same PR, 20 if he out-PRed me by a point (4.5 against 5.5), 10 if he out-PRed me by two points (4.5 against 6.5) and nothing at all if he out-PRed me by at least three full points (4.5 against 7.5). I think this adjustment makes it about right.

4) An easy capability of communication with moderators / admins in real time, through the site (a chat button, a moderator present, etc.) - and not only by email, outside the site.

Those are the main things. The next one would also be "nice to have" -

5) "Friends" - including the ability to specifically challenge a friend to a match.

Good job! I think those are all excellent suggestions. I would add one more -- enable players to create their own board and colors. But overall I think the developers have done an excellent job with this site.

Thanks for your kind words!

I also wanted to change the board design and color. Maybe they can come up with "Galactic ideas" in colors other than blue?

- - - - - - - -

I realize that I have to adjust my formula, to cover "the other side" of the PR question - my rating gain when I win by playing only slightly better than my opponent.

Long story short - if the rating change is based upon luck AND skill, it seems reasonable that winning clearly on both counts will give me the full rating gain (say, 30 points for a certain hypothetical match), winning the match with an equal PR would give me one-half of the rating gain (it's like a 75% win), and winning the match while clearly losing the PR battle should make it a draw (a 50% result) - so no rating change.

So the formula would be this, where X is (again) the "normal rating change" for that win, U is the updated rating change and D is defined as (loser's PR minus winner's PR)

Where -3<D<3, U=X * ((D+3)/6).

Note: I chose a PR differential of 3 as the basis for the formula, as I read somewhere that it represents an elo difference (in normal elo, not in Bg Galaxy elo) of 100 points - so a clear superiority in skill.

A little table for illustration:

In a match where 30 rating points are at stake -

I won and my PR was better by _____ , so I got ______ rating points

3 (or higher) 30
2 25
1 20
0 (equal PR) 15
-1 (I played worse) 10
-2 5
-3 (or lower) 0

- - - - - - - - -

I am rather new to the bg scene. Could you please recommend a bg forum for me, in which I can post the occasional post or article - preferably with an easy interface for inserting diagrams?

I want it to be a forum that is still "alive" in 2020 - so preferably not one of those classic places where everyone wrote amazing articles in 1995 or 2005, but nobody posts today.

Many thanks!

Hummus

PS Hummus was taken both here AND at Bg Galaxy. On Bg Studio Heroes (and on GammonSite) I could still get it without the "1" at the end.

At least it's still pretty distinctive - fortunately I didn't have to go as far as Hummus3406.

There are three BG forums that are still pretty active today.

> This forum.

> Rec.games.backgammon, which usually has one or two new problems a day, along with several regulars who discuss them.

> The 'Backgammon Strategy' forum on Facebook, which has the largest audience along with many world-class players who offer opinions.

There may be more, but those are the ones I look at regularly.

Great to know!

I guess I will have to learn how to post bg diagrams - but I'll definitely check these places out.

I've been enjoying playing on backgammon galaxy but was a little confused by what it saw as mistakes due to risk of gammons and backgammons particularly when you're playing a one point match. Does BG incorporate the match score into it's scoring routines when doing an evaluation?

I like the BG interface but is there any way of sending suggestions to the developers for improving things further? The sort of things that would be nice to change include:

1. Slower movement of the list of available games - I have a little time free and select a 1 point speed game and then suddenly notice at 25 point match has started at a casual speed. Perhaps they could have blank rows at the top that fill in as matches commence.
2. Is there some way of saying that I don't want to see casual matches in my listing or match lengths over 3 or perhaps player strengths roughly in my range? Obviously if the site is quiet then it could relax my preferences but it would be nice, on a busy day, to be able to just see the possible matches that might interest me.
3. I've been caught out a few times when I've been hit and waiting to come in when I wonder why the opponent isn't moving and then suddenly realise it's me to move. I appreciate it's probably just early senility but it would be nice if the dice flash or something in that sort of situation.
4. Same thing has happened when I set up the match and I suddenly find I'm now a different colour and moving the other way. Why do that? Wouldn't it be better to allow players to pick their preferred colour and direction and then just keep to it?
5. I like the existing colour schemes but it wouldn't take much work to offer players a variety if they so choose.
6. In the analysis it would be nice if it just showed a short summary of what your worst moves were in the match and then allow you to click to see the position. The move you made should be clearly indicated.

Also, is there a volunteer mentoring group who offer advice on how to improve? I hover around 1700 but I'd like to get stronger.

Backgammon Galaxy is very good if you want to learn how to play tournament backgammon and want to learn from your mistakes. However, if you also want to play live, especially cash games or chouette, you should also learn how to play your oppenent, know his or her weaknesses, so not just play as if your opponent is a computer. It is up to you what you want to achieve.

I just saw there is a filter, so you can select any type of match that you would prefer, and then look if it is available.

As mentioned above by Mr. Robertie, the Backgammon Strategy Facebook page is the place to learn.