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6 3 opening roll

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10-21-2010 , 11:53 AM

bocraw

stranger

Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 5

I was wondering if anyone knows of an article discussing the 6-3 opening roll. I have been playing agressive 18 to 7 and 8 to 5 with it. This is crazy aggressive, but if I was wondering if the probabilities indicate that is just plain crazy.

Thanks in advance.

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10-21-2010 , 12:19 PM

Popeye

grinder

Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 453

I assume you mean 13 to 7 instead of 18 to 7.
But it is plain crazy, yeah.

Only two proper ways to play 63 opening:
1) 24/18 13/10
2) 24/15

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10-21-2010 , 12:34 PM

bocraw

stranger

Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 5

Yes, I mean 13 to 7.

I swear I read an article or book one time that made an argument for playing that aggressive...

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10-21-2010 , 01:00 PM

Robertie

old hand

Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 1,954

Quote:

Originally Posted by bocraw

Yes, I mean 13 to 7.

I swear I read an article or book one time that made an argument for playing that aggressive...

Backgammon is a game of risk and reward. Your play (13/7 8/5) offers a real reward (making the 5-point and/or bar-point) but does so at a huge risk (2 blots, a total of 28 hitting numbers for your opponent).

Plays like 24/18 13/10 or 24/15 offer nice rewards at very little risk, which makes them better.

If the author doesn't know what he's talking about, books and articles can be very misleading. You need to know something about your source. Nowadays we have bots, so articles are usually at least accurate, if not well-written or helpful. Old books like Paradoxes and Probabilities or Backgammon for Blood can be wildly inaccurate.

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10-21-2010 , 01:45 PM

bocraw

stranger

Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 5

I believe Backgammon for Blood is the book I read, but I have misplaced my copy. I have started goofing around with backgammon again after not playing for a couple of years.

I notice the username "Robertie". I have to ask--are you THE Robertie, as in Bill Robertie?

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10-21-2010 , 02:01 PM

higonefive

journeyman

Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 317

Quote:

Originally Posted by bocraw

In the heydays and even the mideighties of the last century, there were sharks who played 61 aggressive and arrogant 13/7 and 6/5 despite the possibility to make the barpoint against a fish. I once saw this in a head to head session, the fish behind. He then doubled, followed by beaver and raccoon, loosing a complicated and messed up backgame backgammon. And then he began really steaming... It was a slaughter. Therefore "backgammon for blood".

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10-21-2010 , 02:07 PM

mute

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 11,815

I think Backgammon for Blood recommended 13/10 13/7 which is not nearly as bad as 13/7 8/5, but still pretty bad.

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10-21-2010 , 02:28 PM

bocraw

stranger

Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 5

fish, beaver, raccoon ? I am really showing my amateurism here, and how much rust I have in the game (not that I am or ever was any good).

Is it possible that the aggressive (crazy) 13/7, 8/5 play increases the chances of losing an individual game, but increases the odds of winning with the doubling cube or gammon? Making it suitable for a high risk/ high reward player who enjoys the challenge of a back-game?

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10-21-2010 , 03:57 PM

ferrengi

grinder

Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 683

Quote:

Originally Posted by bocraw

In a cash game, you always make the play that gives you the most equity in that particular game. However, in a match, there will be scenarios where you'd want to make a high risk/ high reward move even though because even though it hurts your equity in the game, it gives you a better chance of winning the match.
However, I don't think these considerations apply here.

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10-22-2010 , 12:18 PM

#10

higonefive

journeyman

Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 317

Quote:

Originally Posted by ferrengi

24 points in one game. The shark made the play that gave him at least the very most equity with not making the bar but slotting both the bar and the 5 point. You play in a cash game not a bot ranking, but flesh and blood. If you are playing falafel or stick head to head, you are right. But against a fish, a blunder can be more profit then the winner. Unlike the heydays, there are nowadays only a few fishes. So it is more difficult to play provoking plays.

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10-22-2010 , 12:39 PM

#11

bocraw

stranger

Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 5

Will someone please tell me what a "fish" is?

A sucker?

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10-22-2010 , 01:04 PM

#12

Robertie

old hand

Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 1,954

Quote:

Originally Posted by bocraw

Will someone please tell me what a "fish" is?

A sucker?

"Fish" is just game slang for a weak player. The term is pretty much universal across all games of skill.

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10-22-2010 , 02:39 PM

#13

higonefive

journeyman

Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 317

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robertie

"Fish" is just game slang for a weak player. The term is pretty much universal across all games of skill.

In germany, we say also "Tafelente" (dinner table duck).

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10-22-2010 , 05:23 PM

#14

kruidenbuiltje

journeyman

Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 270

Quote:

Originally Posted by bocraw

Yes it is, the Bill Robertie

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10-22-2010 , 10:20 PM

#15

lostin transit

enthusiast

Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 63

Are you sure? It could be Mycroft Robertie, his smarter brother.

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10-23-2010 , 09:09 PM

#16

BigWill

enthusiast

Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 81

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robertie

Just for clarity the Backgammon for Blood that contains much bad advice is the one by Bruce Becker, which is out of print but may turn up at a used book store. The title has been revived and is now on a recent book by Chris Bray. I have not read the book, but given Mr. Bray's reputation and the reviews I have seen it is a pretty solid, albeit fairly introductory, book on the game.

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10-24-2010 , 01:14 AM

#17

apkrnewb

old hand

Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 1,650

I just run 24 to 15 it's a nothing roll in terms of usefulness and in terms of it's timing in the game.

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10-28-2010 , 01:09 PM

#18

Hartford Whaler

banned

Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 131

Quote:

Originally Posted by Popeye

I assume you mean 13 to 7 instead of 18 to 7.
But it is plain crazy, yeah.

Only two proper ways to play 63 opening:
1) 24/18 13/10
2) 24/15

Hi, I just started playing backgammon a few weeks ago and I love the game and am eager to learn. Sorry for my stupid question, but what do the numbers (24/18 and so on) represent on the board. Thank you for your replies.

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10-28-2010 , 03:29 PM

#19

Robertie

old hand

Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 1,954

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hartford Whaler

In order to describe rolls and plays, we number the points on the board. Black's 24-point is his rearmost point, where he has two checkers to start the game. He also has 5 checkers on the 13-point (also known as the midpoint), 3 checkers on his 8-point, and 5 checkers on his 6-point.

When you see this written

6-3: 24/18, 13/10

it just means the player threw a 6 and a 3 on the dice, and moved one checker from the 24-point to the 18-point (with a 6) and another checker from the 13-point to the 10-point (with a 3).

For an example of a board with the points all labelled, take a look at the Problem of the Week.

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10-28-2010 , 04:48 PM

#20

Hartford Whaler

banned

Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 131

Thank you very much.

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10-29-2010 , 10:17 PM

#21

geneftw

enthusiast

Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 98

The numbers are in reference to whose turn it is. Black's 24 point is Whites 1 point.

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10-30-2010 , 03:12 PM

#22

higonefive

journeyman

Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 317

And when you look at the high octane opening theory, you need nactation (www.nackbg.com/nactation.pdf).

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