Please tell me you're not referring to the clip 9 minutes into that video? Seriously?

People have various body parts that are different sizes. There are lots of people out there who have a hand that is a good bit smaller than the other one, why does no one heal them? Not a single one of them, why? Why do they only do the leg trick, a scam that is well known by various people?

they dont only do the leg trick lol

request a "hand growing" video from tom fischer just post a comment he will probably get to you if you state your concern

It's posts like this one that make me wonder if you really are a superb level. Failing that, ok Noober, god really does give some people the special power to make other people's legs longer and shorter.

Can we go back to what it is you do believe about the bible if you don't take it literally and follow all of it's instructions?

Yeah I know, they do various other tricks as well. But it's a helluva coincidence that they all seem to do the leg trick in the same form.

A few weeks ago I posted a pic on here of a new born baby with a huge cancerous growth on it's face. Do you think any healer would be able to sort that? I'd be more than delighted if they could and yet they all seem to revel in performing what is really just street magic or confidence tricks. They never seem to go for the big things that would show this healing working (or would at least give us pause for thought

Also, where can I ask him this question? Send me a link and I will do it. Should be good for a laugh

i do take it literally and i do follow its instruction

"What is the New Covenant?"
http://www.gotquestions.org/new-covenant.html

read that to get a brief understanding where were at in the world
were not under the law anymore but under grace


i would just leave a comment on his newest video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_dbWK2-qQU

or tomff7@gmail.com
(i found that in the comments )

SOOO what do you wear for clothing then?

Personally, I don't think these "healings" are ever going to demonstrate anything to an unbeliever. I don't think God's healing power can be proved or tested in this way. Paul spoke about a 'demonstration of power and spirit' in 1 Corinthians (1-2), but he was talking to an established church. God's ability to heal lives is demonstrated when the seeker comes by faith to God first, mainly.

In the story of the rich man and Lazarus, the rich man asks Abraham to send Lazarus to his brothers, saying that if they saw a dead man, his brothers would repent. Abraham said that they already have Moses and the prophets, and if one was raised from the dead, they still would not believe.

So faith healing doesn't work on non-believers? Assuming that by 'heal lives' you mean making legs longer and shorter, that sort of thing, and not some spiritual meaning. I suppose it doesn't matter and the question still applies anyway.

Now you seem to be contradicting yourself as you've previously said to me, when I asked if you followed instruction contained in the OT:

So you don't follow all the instructions contained in the bible then?

There are no hard and fast rules concerning this kind of thing: God heals who he wants to heal. But in the New Testament, almost everyone that Christ healed came to Him by faith, and Jesus said over and over afterward that "your faith has made you well."

I said "heal lives," and not "grow legs."

Some people just don't have enough faith



As church leader, Clark ministers to Herbert and Catherine Schaible, the Northeast Philadelphia husband and wife who have chosen prayer instead of medicine for two dying children.

Clark was the spiritual adviser when the Schaibles' 2-year-old, Kent, died from bacterial pneumonia in 2009, which led to a manslaughter conviction and probation for the couple. And he ministered to them last week when 8-month-old Brandon died, a case now being investigated by police.

In an interview with The Inquirer, Clark said God did not want the Schaible children to die.

Instead, he said, the children died because of some "spiritual lack" in the Schaibles' lives - a flaw they need to correct to prevent future deaths.

"They realize they must get back to God, to seek wisdom from him, to find where the spiritual lack is in their heart and life . . . so this won't happen again."

There is no question Herbert Schaible would turn to prayer again if any of his six other children, whose ages range from about 8 to 17, fell ill, Clark said. Just as any First Century member would.

"He would confess his sins and repent to God and ask for a healing touch," Clark said.

The Schaibles would not call a doctor, even now, Clark said.

"Oh, no," he said. "That thought would never enter his mind."


http://articles.philly.com/2013-04-2...spiritual-lack

There is a "new" covenant. The new one is made with a "new" people, who have the law written in their hearts.

If noober is confirmed under a "new" covenant, why would he submit to the old one?

I'm not really sure what the point of posting this retread is, if there is one. If you have pneumonia, you take antibiotics, or see a doctor-- Christian or not. Even Christ gave medical instructions, when he commanded that a girl he just healed be given something to eat immediately. It was common back then for parents to try to "starve" the sickness out of sick folk, or use other archaic and backward remedies, as we all know. It is likely that the parents had made things much worse for the child by their attempts to heal her.

Luke was a physician. And we are told not to test God, which is what this kind of thing amounts to.

You made it seem that one has to believe to be healed. Now you seem to be saying that that's not necessarily the case but Believing (having faith) results in a greater rate of success, is that it?


As I said, the question still stands. I wouldn't have suggested something as ridiculous as growing legs if it hadn't already come up as something that god apparently gives people the power to do.

He said he obeys all biblical instructions yet everytime I try to clarify what they are there are some that he doesn't follow or obey. I'm not certain exactly which parts of the bible he does actually take literally and obey, it seems to be a bit of a selective mix. That's fine, many Theists pick and choose from the bible what they prefer to accept.

IMO, no, believing doesn't do you much better than non-believing, unless of course it were the second coming of Jesus, then well believers would be better off in the long run [no eternal damnation and such].

Where was that suggested [I must have went right past it itt]?

This. I asked what he does for clothes because the bible states in more than one place that it is immoral to wear clothes of two different threads, also as a thesist I am selective [I don't think clothes were two different threads are immoral, amongst other things.]

The new covenant starts in Matthew and ends in Revelation
open up a bible and start from there

Thats what we as gentiles in 2013 need to know the most

you dont pick and choose you walk according to the spirit

Romans 8:1-4
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

I don't understand how you cannot see the that there are two different contexts here:

1. Jesus Christ is present physically and healings happen by Him
and
2. A Christian is present and healing happens by him.

One is at a clear disadvantage (in comparison), not being the sinless lamb of God and all.

But the faith of the one who is to be healed obviously plays a role.

But it is not all that simple, because humans are funny and unpredictable creatures. For example, not everyone who gets healed necessarily turns their life toward God. I have seen this personally, and have heard pastors talk about it-- of people who come to have hands laid on them in faith-- get healed through some great miracle of an illness about to bring an end to their lives -- and then they never set foot in the church again, or go right back to their old lifestyle.

There is an assumption here that anyone who is healed by faith through some miracle would automatically turn their life toward God. This is just not so.

Now, if we assume this to be true, then physical healings or miracles (of themselves) are not necessarily rock-solid and infallible evangelistic tools.

So, someone gets healed, and turns back toward sin.
Someone does not get healed, and would have turned back toward sin even if they did get healed.
Or there are a hundred other variations to consider.

I'm not really interested in playing God here, or presuming to know his ways. I just want to point out that miracles, imo, are not "the clincher" that most people assume they are.

It's like this: Christ and his teachings and commandments represents the fulfillment and summation of the old law.

So a Christian is not dismissing the old law when he follows the teachings of Christ, and, in fact, he is honoring them.

So you obey all instructions in the 'new covenant'?

Just curious but how do you know the new covenant genuinely supercedes the old covenant?

Here's your answer

I'm not asking you what you think someone's motivation might be. I'm not asking you whether a fake faith healer would actually produce dozens of YouTube videos, or what specific methods he used to trick the viewer. I'm simply asking you whether you would be able to differentiate between a video made my a fake faith healer, and what you consider a real faith healer? If yes, how would the video be different?

As far as convincing people that what he is doing is real, consider the douchebag Peter Popoff. This charlatan was caught red-handed using a radio-mic and earpiece from his wife to give the illusion that he was performing miracles. People still go to his events and think what he is doing is real, and they even send him money! If you think it is difficult to fool people, there are many many people who are willing to suspend disbelief because they want the outcome to be true, not because the outcome is actually supported by evidence.

Hold on a sec - do you think the seated guy's legs are moving completely by themselves? If so, you are not even following what the healer is doing. The "healer" tells the seated guy to extend or retract one or the other leg. It is an instruction. You can even try this yourself, just sit on the floor, and slide one leg or the other up or down. All that is happening is with some pivoting from your buttocks (that you might not even be aware of if you didn't pay attention), you can 'swivel' in a way that makes it look like your legs are moving. Well, your legs are moving ofc! They are not changing in length though.

This is different to the technique Derren Brown is using, which is another technique where the subject doesn't move an inch (you can clearly see the subjects whole leg moving if you watch the other videos, especially the one that was sped up!), but it still appears as if the leg has changed length. It is a pretty well known and played out trick, not far removed from making a coin appear from behind the ear of a child. But you believe it because...?


Tell me again why you do not accept the evidence that science gives us about the Theory of Evolution? Could it be that you choose what you want to believe by who said it, and not on the strength or weakness of the evidence? I'm not sure, but you might actually admit to this...yes/no?


Doggg, do you think these random people are performing miracles on the street? I thought noober's views were right on the edge, but it sounds like you think it might be possible.

Yes. I believe that physical healing is possible. I come out of pentecostal roots, and have have seen a lot of stuff that quite frankly, would be hard for my skeptical side to explain. I even believe that someone could be healed at a Peter Popoff event, scam artist or not, because as Christ said many times to those that were healed: YOUR faith has made you well.

The leg trick is an old con, I know, however. I went to see a chiropractor once in my life. The first thing he did was the leg trick. Then he told me that he did an adjustment that healed a girl of blindness. Then there was a car accident down the street and he took out a bunch of his cards so that he could run over there, no lie. I would never hand over another dime to a chiropractor, that's for damn sure.

I have no idea if the Christian in the video is a true man of faith or not, though. How could I know such a thing?

Like many Theists, you seem in this post to place great import on your personal experience. Do you factor in that the human mind is very unreliable when it comes to how we interpret events, remember those events, are influenced to perceive 'reality' by our environment and culture... etc etc? That your mind has evolved to behave in ways that cause it to trick itself on a regular basis? I try to avoid ever basing opinions on subjects like this on personal experience nor do I allow it to sway my opinion when discussing it with people who do. I've never seen a faith healing, that means it's not real? I've seen magicians make tigers vanish, that means it is real? I'm sure you'd be quick to point out the fallacy there.

Just because something is hard for you personally to explain doesn't mean that there is no natural explanation or that it's proof of something spiritual. If faith healing were real, why is it so hard to prove it? Aspirin works because it works, not because I believe it will or have faith in Imhotep.

I'm not trying to prove that miracles happen or that faith-healings are real, however. Someone asked me if I believe in them and I answered in the affirmative.

I believe that if you want to not believe in God then you will find just enough evidence to justify your disbelief. However, if you want to believe in God then you will find just enough evidence to justify your belief. It's set up to be a choice, as it should be.

In fact, you just said as much.

I guess it's funny that we are having this conversation, because just two days ago a Muslim coworker told me that I should be thankful, and grateful for all of the "daily blessings and miracles" in my life, and that he has never met anyone who has such "good luck. Nothing like what happens for you every day happens for me ever," he said.

Especially lately there has been a time of financial difficulty in my life, but money just always seems to find me through the most improbable means just when I need it. I believe he will be converted soon, and he has already recently agreed to come to my church, and not because of any arguments or debates that we have had (though we have had many), but because he is seeing first-hand that there is a peace and confidence through Christ-- through faith-- that cannot be found through the endless keeping of rules and regulations.

Now, it is true that if you have faith, and a positive attitude, you can accomplish much, and it is better to have faith than not having any faith at all. I don't see how a person can accomplish anything great without the determination that faith brings and without a belief that you will succeed or accomplish whatever it is you are trying to accomplish. And this does not prove anything concerning the supernatural. It is just a better way to be, is all. In my thread on Pascal's wager I put forth the idea that Christianity spread so fast and so quickly because it improved the lives of its adherents. There are secular historians who agree, as also was shown in that thread.

Even in my church, I see daily the positive and beneficial effects of our faith. I'd be willing to bet anything that our church has more financially successful black and latino members than any church in all of New Jersey and New York. Young men who grow up in the poverty of the city latch on here to the elders and men who have made it and "catch" what they got-- which is faith, positivity, and patient determination in the face of trials and difficulties.

On the opposite side of the pole, what does the government and secular institutions offer them? They offer free money, yes, which often just ruins lives as it makes people lethargic and dependent. They offer no spiritual counseling, no wise instruction, no hope, no personal hands-on care. They offer a cycle of dependance which-- quite frankly-- has already destroyed whole communities and inner cities.

Does all of this net postive, though, prove that Christ rose from the dead? No.

But it does demonstrate that how and what we choose to believe determines the quality of our lives. It's a choice that matters.

I don't see how you could ever go wrong by wagering in the direction of Christ. If I'm wrong, then I still lived a good, clean life of service to others and communion with my neighbors, and maybe my funeral procession will be 100 cars long, which would say something of the life I lived and the impact it had on other lives, and my kids could be proud of me. I lived a life of faith, having a positive attitude and never giving up on people and goodness. If I'm right, well- then it's party time!

What if you you don't 'want' a particular belief or non belief but decide you'll see where the evidence takes you?