but what does it mean to "believe"? and what about the people that have never heard of Jesus, or the people pre-Jesus? Is Moses in hell?

I'm pretty sure they mean believe Jesus exists:

"because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

Good questions, my guess is Moses got a free pass. Anyway the verses seem clear in stating you need to believe God and or Jesus exist, or you won't go to Heaven. So do you not accept the verses?

Jib, im on my phone so im not goin to quote ur post nor provide verses just yet, but stbp did it looks like so it doesnt rly matter. First of all, moses and others before jesus have NOTHING to do with what we're discussing. I see u've decided to play the "what does "belief" mean" card (lol) which shows me this discussion won't go anywhere. If i had to guess, id say belief in that context means "bake a cake". Either that or "beat off to internet porn". I mean, seriously?!?!? Belief means to believe in the christian god. How could it possibly mean anything else? What are you proposing it means?

"what does 'proposing it means' mean?", he asked in his best JibW voice.

Splendour owning itt imo





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People are reading Splendour I hope and pray you know that.

Is this why Christians are so against harry potter?

A+ lol

Jib - I have to say it seems you're stretching here. I'm pretty certain the pretty straightforward explanation for what "Believe" means is believe in God and Jesus. As an atheist, I certainly don't believe.

"Hold a model of reality which is described by the proposition?"
"Have a propensity to answer certain questions and behave in particular ways?"
"Be in a particular psychological state"
"Be willing to assert that God exists"
...
does it matter?

This passage seems a pretty clear statement to me, if you think it's saying something deeper than "If you don't believe (amongst other things) you shall have your part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." what do you think it is saying?

Even if true, it's irrelevant that demons believe but are doomed - the passage doesnt claim that only unbelievers are going to burneth - a believing liar is in trouble too according to that passage.

As I asked before, if the passage is wildly clear that those who don't believe in Jesus are doomed, what does one say about Moses or about those that never learn about Jesus?

Why is it that you have no problem making an exception for them, but not for atheists? If we are to take this passage in the strictest sense (which is what you are saying) then we must conclude that both Moses and those who have never heard of Jesus must be screwed.

So what is your Justification for making an exception for one but not for the other?

Me? I don't believe in a literal interpretation of the bible. Nor do I believe in hell so there's no exception being granted there. If there's an afterlife I think Moses, Hitler and Judas are all allowed in.

If I were to be taking a literal interpretation though, I'd say it is referring to a belief in God (not Jesus) so Moses is in as could be many who havent heard of Jesus.

EDIT: Assuming they arent sorcerors, liars, etcetera of course.

DOUBLE EDIT: Plus you still havent answered - what do you think it's saying?

Prior to Jesus, you still had to believe in God and you had to make appropriate sacrfices to earn God's forgiveness.

I do think people who have never heard of Jesus would be screwed. And I'm fairly certain there's a number of church leaders who believe the same.

I do think this contradicts the idea of God being Love and Just. Which gets into why a lot of us think the Bible is terribly flawed and not the product of an all loving God.

And don't get me wrong, I think your idea of God is certainly more loving, but I think there's plenty of scripture that contradicts what you believe. (for what its worth, my mother also believes as you do. Though because of her liberal views, she's sort of a loosey-goosey Christian who believes but rejects churches and the Bible as clearly being screwed up.)

Moses and all people before Jesus were under salvation by the Law not grace. A far more just version of salvation imho.

The passages say nothing about Moses/others before Jesus and the NT. They do however refer specifically to unbelievers who have heard the Word. You can come up with whatever helps you sleep at night regarding how they are judged by your God. Why are you bringing them into this discussion? Why did you ask what it means to "believe"? Where were you going with that?

....

just now reading this thread and am curious as to exactly what church you're referring to in this post.

also, i think entire question of OP is laughable. why would christians be persecuted, our rights are given to us to believe as we wish, those who christians say should not be married aren't going to turn around and say those who aren't marrying within the same sex can't marry. christians cannot and should not be made the victim in this situation.

Exactly, the passage says nothing about Moses/others, so why do they get a free pass? The passage seems to leave nothing open.

That is not what i was referring to. It was mainly directed at whether or not we will be able to share certain parts of God's Word without having a problem.

Which parts are you referring to?

the ability will always be there, especially in this country. whether others are willing to open themselves up to the truth (or alternate perspective, depends ldo) is out of your control. all you can do is say what you feels need to be said, the rest is really out of your hands. forcing people to believe in what you believe in is definitely not the proper route to take.

As someone said earlier, they still probably had to believe in God.

But what about unbelievers who have read the word? It seems pretty clear that they are damned even if you allow for Moses not to be. What's their excuse?

so wait....OP thinks he might become persecuted for persecuting gays?

Please stop avoiding the actual issue we're discussing. You're saying yourself here the passage leaves nothing open, but you claim that atheists can get into heaven. I don't have to answer why some give Moses and others a free pass. My whole point was that you pick and choose just like the "cafeteria christians" you spoke about.

Basically.

Why would i persecute a person who is gay? There are many ways to share the message without persecuting anyone. I am not an atheist on 2+2.