eh, who's to say they wouldnt follow a different god they currently deny if their religion was never invented or were somehow proved false? i mean i see the point being made, but i also see how its meaningless to theists.

the OP's point is god as described traditionally in christianity cannot exist.

There is another way to look at this. I am a theist, however given the nature of God any human description is likely to have flaws. Throughout history there have been many religions that have characterized God but there are differences due to our flawed nature and perception. If I feel that one religion or another does a better job of capturing the essence of God that does not make me an atheist towards another religion's God, because it is the same God. It is their description or response to God that does not work for me. Thus I am a Christian, not a Hindu or a Muslim. That also does not mean that the traditional Renaissance painting of God as an elderly gentlemen with a white beard is literally correct either. Again, I am not an atheist towards that God, I am just not convinced that the picture is literally accurate.

When you don't get it, than I might put it in other words:
Is it possible not to believe in something that comes to your mind?

Rize my spotty friend, you've got a lot of bottle trying to dismiss my statement, slightly tongue-in-cheek even though it was, as a strawman when all I have to do is dig through the first few pages of this forum to find you giving the exact same moronic example I did. However, in its absence, this should suffice,

How precisely do you think this god character works? What would he appear as? What would he have a conversation with you about? Will he give you 3 wishes? So long as he's there talking with you, he might as well do that too, right?

If you are not interested in whatever God as it may actually exist in reality might be, but rather in a strictly dogmatic version of God derived wholly from the Christian scriptures and subsequent interpretations by certain people, you are still waffling b0ll0cks, given that nowhere in the christian bible is it promised that god will personify in front of you and hold a conversation with you just to try and convince you of his existence. On the other hand, if you are even attempting to inquire genuinely about the nature of what god might really be, then excuse the pun, god help us all.

The simple and completely pointless nature of your "cutting insights" coupled with the deliberately derogative and flippant tone of a lot of your responses leads me to believe two things: 1. you are very young and immature, 2. you probably know you're full of sh*t, you're just trying to goad people into replying to you so you can "crush them" with your "biting logic" etc. etc.

Pretty pathetic.

I'll say it again: get on with being an atheist already if that is what you are happy doing, if you are genuinely searching for god, you're doing it wrong, and might want to think about changing tact some.

Wah, wah, leave us theists alone!

We like tapping the glass. It's fun. Nobody is forcing you to participate in a discussion forum on religion.

Rizeagainst's argument doesn't Just work against certain versions of the Christan God. It works against any God who wants or requires something form us. If God wants me to act in certain ways or have a belief in him then He has to tell me the rules or show me he exists.

His Word.

Even if i used Hid word i would have to guess at the rules which is not good enough on such an important issue. And that still doesn't fix the belief thing.

You don't have to guess, you just need to understand. But not even trying is not the way to go.

Ive read bible a bit, that doesn't work.

That is not even remotely true. Sometimes you need to find things on your own for them to be meaningful or lasting.

How can i find out what Gods rules are and find him without him telling me and showing me?

If He were to just show Himself and tell every single person wondering, then He would be interfering with the free will of others that have no interest in hearing what He has to say. Which is why we are given His Word. Can you tell us what is stopping you from reading what He has to say, and following His rules?

God showing himself in no way interferes with the free will of others. The same way that a robber doesn't interfere with the homeowner's house he breaks into. Or me whistling on the street interferes with your free will. Yes, these are awful examples, but someone taking an action doesn't interfere with free will. If you think it does, we have incredibly different definitions of what "free will" means.

Thats doesn't work. People who knew God had, and apparently have at least in heaven, the free will to not accept what he was saying.

Like i said i have read the bible. What stopping me from following some of its rules? I do follow and agree with some of the bibles rules. Tell me which rules of the bible are you taking about and ill tell you why im not following them.

If God were to show you everything at once, it would defeat the purpose of your existence. Whatever 'reality' we're living in is only getting worse, whether that is entirely done by the hand of humans is unclear.

The first step is figuring out something is wrong, and I believe this is what God is trying to gradually 'show you'. After all, how could one love nature without seeing what happens when one turns away from it (the grand design)?

If there are further steps beyond that, to take them will require quite a bit of self-reflection and awareness. If you can reach one of those higher levels, there really isn't much to fear, you can accept this form of reality for what it is and wait for further instructions.

On the surface a fair question but one that actually presents insurmountable problems. Ultimately anything I said you could reject unless I could provide physical evidence that the process involved divine intervention. That I cannot do, which may be part of the situation by design. I have found ways that work for me, but you will only have any faith in your answer if you find it for yourself. Perhaps you should look.

Or not, it's your choice.

BTW to avoid the accusation that I am making assumptions, I realize you may have looked and found nothing. I cannot explain that. There are logical possibilities but experience has taught me that listing them provokes an emotional response.

doesnt matter if people would or wouldnt insta turn and obey Him. In fact I'm sure many wouldnt considering the horrendous acts God did in the OT. Regardless, it would put *everyone* on an equal playing field, and the free will decision to choose to follow God wouldn't be hampered by God's apparent desire for many people to not have any clue and be unable to find any reason to believe that He exists

The search and you will find thing doesn't work because what i find when i search for answers to moral questions is my moral beliefs. And what i find when i search for or talk to God is hes not home or talking back.

If you want to tell me logically why that is i have no problem, i might get heated sometimes but it all good.

So who said it didn't work?

And you assume that where you'd find God is a different place than where the answers to your moral beliefs are?

presumptuous and arrogant. atheists disbelieve because of evidence or lack of evidence, not because they are secretely compelled to belief but are being stubborn.

free will has nothing to do with this. genuine belief of any kind is compelled by evidence. belief as a matter of free will equates to brainwashing.

and rest assured that if god appeared every sane person in the world would be interested in what he had to say.

the same thing that is stopping you from reading and following god's word in the koran duh.

People who say they are in touch with God and my moral truths aren't his. And me because i cant read Gods mind that i know of.
If that's God talking back alright. But ill tell you not many theists are going to want to live by some of my God given moral truths.

They don't have to, only you do.

<begin bizzaro rant>

so wait a minute....those of you who are Christians...would you say that if you unequivocally know that there is a God or that he exists, then you wouldn't need to have faith, correct?

But if faith is the one action you need in order to be saved, then those of you who say you "know for a fact" that God exists, will not be saved...right?

So Christians do not, in fact, know that God exists. they only have faith that he does. Any Christian espousing 100% knowledge is actually putting his soul in danger.

Also, by saying that if God came down and "proved" to us unbelievers that he existed would in someway affect our free will is ludicrous. We'd still be able to make a rational decision whether or not to worship him. If the Creator came down from Heaven and revealed Himself to me, I would still have the free will to choose whether or not I thought he deserved worshiping. And if He was, in fact, the God of the bible, I would probably choose not to worship him.

It's like Mimi Rogers at the end of "The Rapture." She chooses to reject God based on his actions. Any one who demands to be worshiped should be held accountable. Especially God.

<end bizzaro rant>