God knows that I don't believe in him. He knows that I don't believe in him based on the lack of compelling evidence as I see it.

Why doesn't he do something miraculous that would leave me no doubt that he exists? If he appeared before me right now and started having a conversation with me, that could be a start. My eyes and ears are open, I don't see anything, I don't hear anything. Are you really going to try to tell me that he is there talking to me and I'm just not doing enough to hear him?

I don't understand why god wouldn't do this if he does exist. Obviously I don't see ample reason to believe based on the evidence as I see it. God knows that. Doesn't he want to save my soul? Why won't he personally make an effort? Does he just not care? Does he want me to go to hell?

I don't see why this is an unreasonable request for an entity that knows everything, can do anything, loves everyone, and transcends time.

Shouldn't we all have the ability to witness things like Jesus' miracles, not just that fraction of people that happened to be lucky enough to be born at that time, in that place?

Why can't your god try? He created fallible human beings and then blames them at the end of their lives for having made a fallible decision in regards to existence?

Religious people always appeal to their personal experience as to why they think or "know" that god exists. Well I don't have any personal experience with god. I don't see anything in the world that leads me to believe that god exists. My eyes function like yours do. My ears function like yours do. Yet I don't see him and I don't hear him. What's the matter? I guess you're just the special chosen one that god cared enough about to interact with?

Or maybe, just maybe, you've read too far into some event(s) in your life and saw something that wasn't there.

Gunth is God's instrument. He's speaking very clearly. You just aren't listening.

OP,
How often do you and other like-minded fellows post challenges and arguments like these in this forum? I'm not really sure, because I don't frequent this place much, but I have gathered the impression, from the little I've seen, that there appears to be a core group of non-believers who periodically expend a lot of words and energy in this forum.

If my impression is false, then never mind. Otherwise, can you explain to me why any non-believer would make a habit of posting critiques and contentions in this forum? I get doing it once or twice for the novelty of it, and to see what happens. But don't you soon discover that you never get anywhere, because the people you're challenging employ fundamentally different assumptions and rules of argumentation? Don't all your exchanges rather quickly shift to a stalemate, in which the believers retreat to scriptural citation and personal professions of faith, or theological reasoning whose foundations are meaningless to you?

Am I wrong? Is there not a group of semi-regular non-believers who come to this forum to ignite or participate in dead-end controversy? Have you ever seen any fruitful result come from it, or is it just done for low entertainment?

Your biggest mistake is your impression that you disbelieve because of a lack of evidence. You should study Greg Bahnsen's work in self-deception. The Bible also talks of this self-deception, most notably Romans 1. You can also read Luke 16:22ff which is interesting to me because if the Bible is fake as is claimed by atheists the story should go that the person looking for more evidence should be shown more. But The answer to the request is that evidence is not the issue, just as it's not the issue with yourself. For instance, what is the point of your post? Are you searching for truth wherever it leads? Are you earnestly desiring to consider the opposite of what you post all the time on here? Are you looking for good sources to study other views? Of course not-that's laughable. Your point is the last line-that you believe Christians read too far into some events in their lives and saw something that wasn't there. You are preaching, not seeking. You are being dogmatic, not open. And this is the true state of affairs; you're hardened; you are wise in your own eyes. Don't you even see...can't you even understand...in Genesis, the first man and woman--they knew God personally, heard His voice audibly, understood He was their maker--and they went away from Him. The early Israelites had miracles before them, the Shekinah glory in their midst, fully believed in His existence, and HATED Him. God cares not whether someone believes intellectually in His existence; He is looking for those who recognize Him and love Him. And those people look at nature and see that He created it, and there can be no other explanation. They laugh at randomness causing the most deliberately intricate beauty imaginable. They look at themselves and realize love, joy, peace, justice, mercy, all morality resolves itself in the character of God, and absent God there is no accounting for these absolutes. They realize man is more than matter, life is more than earth, meaning is more than arbitrariness. They know God and are known by God. Disbelief is rooted in sin, not intellect.

So you, other people, books, and the bible get to tell me why I don't believe things now. Gotcha.

Clearly if I don't believe exactly what you believe I'm deceiving myself.

+1

Maybe God also knows that you will ignore or disbelieve any evidence he provides. Maybe he only wants love that is freely given and doesn't want to compel you by providing evidence that would represent compulsion. You can choose to believe or not.

God, this **** is so easy, you'd think a smart guy like you would get it. It's not like there haven't been centuries of blowhards trying to smash holes in it.

I'm gonna step up and give you a raw honest answer, you can take it or leave it, i'm not here to debate with you, cos we'll both agree that's pointless.

God simply doesn't work in the way you are implying in your post. Clearly, those tiny percentage of people who witnessed Jesus' miracles, if you accept any at all did, are not the norm. The rest of us have to work for it. Open our hearts, our minds, humble ourselves, and go searching for whatever the reality represented by the word God may actually be, and still, as some in this forum will attest, you may give up before you get anywhere.

You are basically being a lazy spoilt kid, spitting your dummy out of the pram and waving your arms around saying "WHERE'S GOD? I WANT GOD NOW!!! WHY DOESN'T HE SHOW HIMSELF? WA WA WA." All the while even this pathetic search is in vain because it lacks any sort of genuine belief and openness. It has self-importance written all over it.

The situation in which I believe I first experienced God involved me coming inch-close to physical death, fighting for my life for two weeks, and spending the next three or four years mentally, physically and emotionally recovering from the trauma. That is what it took, a sh*tload of suffering and humility and a life and a young person all but destroyed and being rebuilt from the ashes. I don't think I would have got there with anything less, I honestly don't.

Given your current disposition, I imagine it would take something of this nature for you to have a real honest shot at discovering the spiritual reality that lay behind all the negatives and falsehoods you and most people have come to associate with the word God.

You are treating the most serious and significant subject as if it is something trivial, you are searching without wanting to find, without believing there is a real chance you will find, and whilst ridiculing and probably hating the thing you are apparently looking for.

Even as someone who holds no belief in God, surely you can see how pathetic and pointless and therefore invalid that is?

If you're really searching, you're doing it wrong, and if you're happy being an atheist, then just get on and be one already.

That is a horrible, horrible post for so many reasons.

THIS

AND i'm just taking a break from poker, while the WC is on.

recharge my batteries.

and arguing theology (in a very limited way, i'll admit, is a hobby of mine).

on a serious note, i would like to encounter a theist with more arguments than "it says it in the bible".

i haven't yet.

Hainesy's post may be on target, but I think it might have missed the mark a little. The OP is not really a complaint against God as Rize does not believe in God. It is once again a very weak reductio ad absurdum argument along the lines of:

Assuming there were a God, He would do x. As x does not happen, there can be no God. The weakness is that the atheist in general and the OP specifically does not understand that if one can construct a scenario that would hypothetically explain the lack of x while still allowing God, then the whole demonstration fails.

If one explains the scenario, then a long winded argument results usually including new variations on the original failed argument. In the end, some atheists seem to draw confidence from their ability to construct large numbers of such arguments even though they all fail in the same way.

As an aside, this comment would have some possibility of merit if you would specifically name one. Without that, you just look stupid. I realize you self-identified yourself as a dim atheist in another thread, but that did not require you to begin creating evidence.

The problem is that you are treating revealed religion and belief brought about by personal experience as the same. If every Christian had arrived at his belief through personal experience, your objections would make sense, but that is not the case.
The overwhelming majority of believers are believers in revealed religion. They believe in the bible, the Koran or the Bhagavad Gita, among others. Their belief is intellectual and tied to a holy book.
Their faith would, at least theoretically, fall apart if that holy book could somehow be proven to be the result of fraud.
This makes it reasonable to argue against the specific teachings of the holy book, and extrapolations of those teachings.

not going to waste my time responding to that post. he made it clear OP isnt trying hard enough. wtf is there to say to that? nothing,thats what.

Do you believe that there are people out there that don't really take it seriously, but say that they do?

OP I believe God did everything on the Cross and the reason why he won't show you a miracle is because he wants you to honestly assess the Cross.

God's method is always to work from the inside out. He changes us from the inside out but first that involves a focus on him and a struggle. Right now you are focusing on him and struggling. Ask him to guide you and don't be surprised if he leads you with baby steps. Very few people are ready for him to lead them with giant steps. Moses had to baby step with God for 80 years before God could use him.

I find it strange too why atheists spend so much time in this forum. I know why I do it - because it's quick, cheap entertainment. I'm bored, so let's see what nonsense and hilarity is going down in RGT.

Edit: This thread delivers btw.

I do it out of a force of habit when I'm trying to kill time.

Rize.... do you want to believe in God?

Do you want for there to be a God?

It is curious how persistent the atheist regulars are in their investigations into something they don't believe in.

The thread starters, that is.

sure, but not someone that posts on a religion forum as much as rize does. imo, what he's saying boils down to the idea that short of a personal experience, he's seen and heard all the evidence there is, and that evidence falls short of allowing him to believe. so it isn't unreasonable, imo, for him to wonder why your god wont (cant?) provide more evidence to get him to belief. why cant your god extend him the same courtesy as others in the past who were provided with more evidence? no one disputes that many die without belief, so the whole "you aren't rly trying" argument doesn't hold any water whatsoever.

For me it's because weather or not i believe in Christianity or other Religions they affect my life in fundamental ways so its important to have knowledge of them.

Plus i disagree theists should be the only ones allowed to think and talk about the fundamental questions of our existences, like a creator. I like to think about the questions of who are we, were did we come form, is there a God and what would he/she/it be like if there is one.

Please quote where I said that.


















Now that you realize that I didn't say that, you'll realize that what I said is that assuming god exists, it's not unreasonable to expect him to do X. Not that he MUST do X.

I also never said if he doesn't do X then he must not exist. Your entire post is a ****ing strawman.

This is our fundamental difference.

I don't want or require anything of reality. I accept it as it is. Whether I want there to be a god or not is a complete non-sequitur. I don't want anything from reality...I just want to know what reality is.

You on the other hand, have become more interested in your hopes and wishes for reality instead of reality itself.

Do you believe that there are people out there that think they're the ones taking things seriously and attempt to tell others they don't, but in reality are deceiving themselves?

It's curious to you that people on two different sides of a debate investigate each other's ideas and claims? What a mystery!