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Originally Posted by Original Position
One of the assumptions of orthodox Christianity is that everyone is in need of salvation. This comes in different flavors, but here is a typical version of the story. Humans somehow have a sin nature, or have sinned, and as a result are separated from God. Since God is a perfect and holy being, it is necessary for humans to re-enter Her presence that they be cleansed of all sin through the redemption provided us by Jesus' death on the cross.
Here's my question. Why is it that God will only associate with perfect beings? That is, okay, so let's admit that humans sin on a fairly regular basis. Even once they've been saved, they continue to sin pretty regularly. However, this doesn't seem like it should mean that they don't wish to still have a relationship with God (assuming of course that there is one). So why is God refusing this? Why does she put in the additional requirement of atonement? Why is perfection the requirement, and not just, for instance, being really, really good?
P.S. I'll admit that my levelling impulse with regards to divine/human relationships is a result of living in an anti-aristocratic democracy.
It's not that God can't associate with sinners-- He is doing that right now in some way. I don't even think that it is an issue of compatibility, either. I think this life is a process of perfection (or maturation) that inevitably weeds out the bad apples. Think of death as the final rite of initiation-- some will graduate, and others will be annihilated, and yet others go to hell.
It's like this: suppose you want to start a community. So you are just going to choose people. You are going to choose friends and neighbors and children and so on. All of you are going to live together in the same area. You will barbecue together and police your community together and so on.
Are you going to just take anybody for fellowship? Are you going to go looking for a roommate among the dregs, buskers and bums?
Or are you going to qualify them in some way?
There is a very interesting verse in the creation story:
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Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
God kicked them out because He didn't want them to "graduate" yet. They couldn't have eternal life just yet. They simply can't be trusted in this neighborhood, in this community, and they are not going to pass the background check.
Look again at what He says:
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Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
This "us" represents this particular community. The man has become like the adversary, and he "knows" evil. Man is created in "our" image and "our" likeness, therefore, he is meant to be one of us, but has become just like
one of us.
So, we are at one remove from God's presence right now. But suppose that you have it your way, and God let's you fellowship with Him and the angels. I could easily dream up all kinds of scenarios-- none good. You might wind up like Adam, who took everything he had for granted, so much so that he couldn't even bring himself to act in an apologetic fashion before his creator after he broke a cardinal rule.
You would be exactly like Adam, in fact, because Adam didn't have a "childhood" either. He never grew up either.
Think of what Jesus meant when He said that "you must be born again." This second birth (which is a spiritual birth) indicates the beginning of spiritual growth and maturation. It must be toward some cause or goal, no?
So, anyway, that's just the way I read it: that God is looking to add to His number, but He's protecting the neighborhood, and being careful with who He lets in.