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Why God Created Humans Why God Created Humans

06-25-2012 , 12:09 AM
Humans exist because they exist! Looks silly but that's the way it is, life being what it is. And about the God you are talking about, there is no such God, just natural laws (the real God and God it is) that produce stuffs like humans at this part of the universe.
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06-25-2012 , 02:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splendour
Genesis 3:8

"Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden."
Is this literal or allegory?
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06-30-2012 , 09:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 6471849653
Humans exist because they exist! Looks silly but that's the way it is, life being what it is. And about the God you are talking about, there is no such God, just natural laws (the real God and God it is) that produce stuffs like humans at this part of the universe.
Humans exist because they exist doesn't explain anything.

A lot of babies come into this world with the affinity to believe in God.

I'm almost done arguing with atheists now because a lot of them could suffer from male brainedness. Male brainedness occurs from the level of testosterone in utero's affect on certain brains. A lot of people with the genetic predisposition to male brainedness are systematizers. This could lead them to attempt to systematize things under evolution and persuade other people to do likewise using arguments. But it's just their genetic predisposition. Just because male brainedness is something found in a lot of engineering and science types doesn't make them absolutely right. It could fool them into the prideful sin that they know more than everybody else when maybe they don't.
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06-30-2012 , 10:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splendour
Humans exist because they exist doesn't explain anything.

A lot of babies come into this world with the affinity to believe in God.

I'm almost done arguing with atheists now because a lot of them could suffer from male brainedness. Male brainedness occurs from the level of testosterone in utero's affect on certain brains. A lot of people with the genetic predisposition to male brainedness are systematizers. This could lead them to attempt to systematize things under evolution and persuade other people to do likewise using arguments. But it's just their genetic predisposition. Just because male brainedness is something found in a lot of engineering and science types doesn't make them absolutely right. It could fool them into the prideful sin that they know more than everybody else when maybe they don't.
What is a systematizer?
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06-30-2012 , 10:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zumby
What is a systematizer?

sys·tem·a·tize

1.make or become systematic: to arrange something according to a system, or be arranged according to a system

VERB
Synonyms: organize, arrange, classify, categorize, sort out, combine, structure
Synonyms: schematize, arrange, structure, organize, draft, set out, outline

http://www.bing.com/Dictionary/searc...on&FORM=DTPDIA
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06-30-2012 , 10:15 AM
Right, so that pretty much looks exactly like you are trying to dismiss scientific thinking by invoking scientific thinking (genetics, testosterone etc).
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06-30-2012 , 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by zumby
Because that pretty much looks exactly like you are trying to dismiss scientific thinking by invoking scientific thinking (genetics, testosterone etc).
I came across Justin Barrett's contention that hormones could play a role in atheists being atheists. Males are a disproportionately high number in atheistic populations. Most atheists are educated white European males.

So if you have a natural predisposition towards systemizing things doesn't that mean you have an internal bias when weighing evidence?

I doubt arguments can overcome an internal bias.

Only love can overcome the internal bias that a person or a group of people have against another person or a group of people.
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06-30-2012 , 10:25 AM
That makes sense. The fact that religion utterly fails to provide any evidence or rational to justify its made up fairy tales is best explained not because some people are able to use the standard of reason and evidence, but because of some vague allusion about hormones. I would probably be insulted if it wasn't so ridiculous.
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06-30-2012 , 10:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splendour
So if you have a natural predisposition towards systemizing things doesn't that mean you have an internal bias when weighing evidence?
But on one hand you are claiming that a natural predisposition towards belief in God somehow validates that belief, while also claiming that a natural predisposition towards systemizing things is a form of bias.

Science isn't like religions; you can't just pick-n-mix the parts you like. If you are willing to credit a Templeton Foundation sponsored study that 'proves' that religious belief is innate then you need to credit the Templeton Foundation sponsored study that 'proves' that God doesn't answer your prayers.
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06-30-2012 , 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by uke_master
That makes sense. The fact that religion utterly fails to provide any evidence or rational to justify its made up fairy tales is best explained not because some people are able to use the standard of reason and evidence, but because of some vague allusion about hormones. I would probably be insulted if it wasn't so ridiculous.
You can read Barrett's chapter on atheism in his book Born Believers.

Quote:

Effect on Brain
Testosterone has many effects on the male brain--some are prenatal and others occur at puberty. In their book, "You: Having A Baby," Drs. Michael Roizen and Mehmet Oz note that early testosterone production by a male embryo has a profound effect on the brain. The hormone causes atrophy of communication centers in the brain, and proliferation of aggression centers. This predisposes males to less potential for development of communication skills, and increased potential for development of aggressive behavior as adults, though influences throughout life continue to affect brain development, and may either augment or ameliorate early effects of testosterone. At puberty, testosterone again begins to affect the brain, heightening sex drive and increasing instances of aggression.


Read more: http://www.livestrong.com/article/20...#ixzz1zHnHFgMd


Population attributes of atheists in the US

Overall, U.S. Americans who profess no religion or self-identify as atheist or agnostic are more likely to be white or Asian and less likely to be African American or Hispanic, as compared to the general adult population in U.S.[47]

In the U.S., 55 percent of atheists are under age 35, while 30 percent are 50 and over (compared to 37 percent of the total population). As a group agnostics are older than atheists, though still younger than the general population.[47] Comparing this 2001 data with the 1990 National Survey of Religious Identification (NSRI) provides evidence of a trend towards secularization among the younger American population.[47][48]

In the US men are more likely to be atheists than women, and also rate lower on various other measures of religiosity such as frequency of prayer.[49]

"The analyses of the National Longitudinal Study of Adolescent Health (Study 1) and the General Social Surveys (Study 2) show that adolescent and adult intelligence significantly increases adult liberalism, atheism, and men's (but not women's) value on sexual exclusivity."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism


Personality profiles

Luke Galen is an Associate Professor of Psychology at Grand Valley State University in Grand Rapids, Michigan, who uses the Big Five personality model. Galen says that he researches demographics of non-religious communities directly, rather than as a byproduct of investigating religious groups. One of Galen's studies attempted to control for demographics and church attendance; he found that members of secular organizations (like the international Center for Inquiry) have similar personality profiles to members of religious groups. Galen describes how members of secular organizations are very likely to label themselves primarily as "atheists", but also very likely to consider themselves humanists.[2] Galen explains that secular group members show no significant differences in their negative or positive affect - meaning they are no more or less happy (in line with other research on religion and happiness). These members also have similar profiles for conscientiousness (discipline or impulse control, and acting on values like "pursuit of truth"). On the other hand, secular group members do tend to be less agreeable (e.g. more likely to hold unpopular, socially challenging views), as well as more open minded (e.g. more likely to consider new ideas) than members of religious groups. Galen writes "Many previously reported characteristics associated with religiosity are a function not of belief itself, but of strong convictions and group identification."


Oh and there are theists who argue from evidence. Try reading one instead of arguing on message boards that give a false impression that theism has no evidence.

Try Geisler and Zukeran's The Apologetics of Jesus for starters. It's a reader friendly book.
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06-30-2012 , 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by zumby
But on one hand you are claiming that a natural predisposition towards belief in God somehow validates that belief, while also claiming that a natural predisposition towards systemizing things is a form of bias.

Science isn't like religions; you can't just pick-n-mix the parts you like. If you are willing to credit a Templeton Foundation sponsored study that 'proves' that religious belief is innate then you need to credit the Templeton Foundation sponsored study that 'proves' that God doesn't answer your prayers.
I'm not good at science.

But I think Barrett just scientifically validated God's position on the Great Commission.

God could have gave you a natural bent for being a scientist. It doesn't mean he wants you to be an anti-god scientist.

Last edited by Splendour; 06-30-2012 at 10:48 AM. Reason: grammar correction.
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06-30-2012 , 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Splendour
I'm not good at science.
Fair enough.

You do seem to enjoy learning about things though, so why not take a little bit of time to learn a bit more about science in a structured way.. I'd heartily recommend starting with Khan Academy's series of videos on biology - most of the videos are less than 15 minutes and you can view it as a way of learning more about the awesome processes God put in place to create us, if you like.

If you do this, I will read any two books of your choice, cover to cover, with an open mind. Deal?
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06-30-2012 , 11:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zumby
Fair enough.

You do seem to enjoy learning about things though, so why not take a little bit of time to learn a bit more about science in a structured way.. I'd heartily recommend starting with Khan Academy's series of videos on biology - most of the videos are less than 15 minutes and you can view it as a way of learning more about the awesome processes God put in place to create us, if you like.

If you do this, I will read any two books of your choice, cover to cover, with an open mind. Deal?
Deal.

I will watch those videos.

You read Justin Barrett's Born Believer and Geisler and Zukeran's The Apologetic of Jesus.

I may not have a background in science but my thing is observing people and I've observed atheists for years online.

Sometimes you have to get the beam out of your own eye before you can see the truth. That's a paraphrase of what Jesus Christ said on discovering the truth. Beam removing...ouch...it hurts...
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06-30-2012 , 11:19 AM
Cool, I'm starting with AoJ today. From the introduction it's clear the author takes a very different view of apologetics to, say, William Lane Craig, so it will be interesting to see how it develops.

Quote:
Anyone who makes a truth claim—to say nothing about a claim
to ultimate truth (John 14:6)—must provide evidence for that claim.
Jesus does exactly that, and in so doing, he provides a pattern for
apologetics that is of great value to the contemporary defender of
the Christian faith. What could be more helpful than the model of
the Master?
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06-30-2012 , 11:41 AM
Any chance you would start a thread so we can discuss those sections of AoJ you find compelling/interesting?
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06-30-2012 , 11:54 AM
No diggity
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06-30-2012 , 09:00 PM
Videos watched so far:

Introduction to Evolution and Natural Selection
Ape Clarification
Intelligent Design and Evolution
Evolution Clarification
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06-30-2012 , 09:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splendour
Videos watched so far:

Introduction to Evolution and Natural Selection
Ape Clarification
Intelligent Design and Evolution
Evolution Clarification
Where do you currently stand on the above issues?* (I've seen you mention Adam & Eve a couple of times, but I don't want to be presumptuous)

*I'm not trying to derail or lure you into a debate; I would just like for you to clarify your position so I don't make any false presuppositions in the future. Thank you.
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06-30-2012 , 10:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdfasdf32
Where do you currently stand on the above issues?* (I've seen you mention Adam & Eve a couple of times, but I don't want to be presumptuous)

*I'm not trying to derail or lure you into a debate; I would just like for you to clarify your position so I don't make any false presuppositions in the future. Thank you.
I don't have a definite stand on origins but I think God's behind everything. Even if I had the interest to get a Ph.D. in biology and were a world renowned evolutionist like Dobzhansky I doubt it would change my beliefs much.

I've just never had the interest in science to think it's something you judge the existence of God questions by.

Since I'm more of a social sciences, people and history person I find those subjects more relevant in my evaluation of existential topics.
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06-30-2012 , 10:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splendour
I don't have a definite stand on origins but I think God's behind everything. Even if I had the interest to get a Ph.D. in biology and were a world renowned evolutionist like Dobzhansky I doubt it would change my beliefs much.

I've just never had the interest in science to think it's something you judge the existence of God questions by.

Since I'm more of a social sciences, people and history person I find those subjects more relevant in my evaluation of existential topics.
I basically just meant are you currently a theistic evolutionist, or would you consider yourself something else entirely?
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06-30-2012 , 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by asdfasdf32
I basically just meant are you a theistic evolutionist, or something else?
I don't even know if I could claim to be that though I did tentatively for a while. I don't have any quarrel with evolution but I also don't have any with any other positions on origins questions. I know they use evolution in medicine but I don't have a good enough grasp on science for it to be a determining factor for me personally though I've turned up things like the VMAT-2 gene seeking to find out more.
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06-30-2012 , 10:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splendour
I don't even know if I could claim to be that though I did tentatively for a while. I don't have any quarrel with evolution but I also don't have any with any other positions on origins questions. I know they use evolution in medicine but I don't have a good enough grasp on science for it to be a determining factor for me personally though I've turned up things like the VMAT-2 gene seeking to find out more.
That's fair. Hope you enjoy the videos.
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06-30-2012 , 11:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splendour
I don't have a definite stand on origins but I think God's behind everything.
quoted for truth
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07-02-2012 , 09:06 AM
You might like checking into John C. Sanford's ideas zumby. He's a famous geneticist. You'll probably follow his ideas better than I do if you like science.

Genetic Entropy: Is the Human Race Degenerating?

http://www.emmanuelmsu.org/index.php...d=98&showall=1
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07-02-2012 , 12:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splendour
You might like checking into John C. Sanford's ideas zumby. He's a famous geneticist. You'll probably follow his ideas better than I do if you like science.

Genetic Entropy: Is the Human Race Degenerating?

http://www.emmanuelmsu.org/index.php...d=98&showall=1
Mmm, he's a proponent of Intelligent Design. That page doesn't go into any detail on his specific hypotheses so I can't really go into any detail with a rebuttal from a scientific perspective but here's why I think you should treat ID with more skepticism that you seem to:

1. The Nobel Prize can be more than $1,000,000. That's a big cash incentive for any biologist to disprove evolution. Despite this, only a handful of biologists disagree with the fundamentals of Darwinism.
2. If you think that the scientific community is capable of falsifying the evidence en masse, why wouldn't they have done it for abiogenesis and/or whatever caused the Big Bang?
3. The major Christian churches tend to accept evolution. There is no scriptural reason for them to do so, but they understand that evolution is a 'fact' and therefore their credibility would be undermined by denying it.
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