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Why is faith necessary? Why is faith necessary?

03-13-2013 , 05:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ezravan
faith
/fāTH/
Noun
Complete trust or confidence in someone or something.

The building could collapse and they do all the time, my car might not start but usually does... so I trust and am confident (in mechanics) that they will/will not. I was just saying that is what faith is to a christian, I feel sinful and imperfect, jesus offers a line so I trust it. Most Christians don't test if the rope is sound, they just grab it out of a great need they find in themselves. The rope could possibly be flawed, I'm sure it's happened before. But, probability shows that it's trustworthy... just as Christians believe in a probability that a God would provide a solution for our perceived predicament (death).
Buildings do not collapse all the time - a specific building might collapse under certain circumstances....and only once, unless it is rebuilt! When you go to start your own car, you have prior knowledge and experience telling you how reliable your car is. That is not faith, in this context. If you found an old deserted car in the middle of nowhere with the keys still in the ignition, and you believe it will start the first time without checking any of the mechanics or fuel level etc, then that would be an example of the type of faith we are talking about

The dictionary contains multiple definitions of words, you are committing an equivocation fallacy. Faith can also mean 'complete trust', but that is not the meaning that the Bible is suggesting.

Christian faith:
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good testimony.
By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible. Hebrews 11:1


When someone says they have faith in Jesus, I think this is a particularly confusing sentence because it is using multiple meanings of the word at once; they are presumably using faith to mean trust (a meaning not under discussion), but at the same time they are also saying they believe in Jesus without evidence (which is the meaning under discussion).
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03-13-2013 , 05:59 PM
I like what ajmargarine said about faith as a disposition similar to kindness and humility. I think the word for this is virtue. Or I guess fruit of the Spirit in Paul's language.

That said, I don't think faith-as-virtue is really the kind of faith that the OP was asking about, which seemed more like faith-as-epistemological-category. The former is supposed to be the outcome of spirituality, and the latter is more about the process by which one comes to accept that the spiritual exists and is worth seeking after.

edit: foiled by crosspost!
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03-14-2013 , 03:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by red_Eyes_Bot
OK Kid. Your hate for God makes you angry? Well you will grow up ... beyond the primate level, maybe... lets hope.
This kid is 50 years old. So perhaps it's too late for me. You, however, still have time to learn how to conduct yourself without coming across like a fool.

But I doubt that will happen.
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03-14-2013 , 11:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic
This kid is 50 years old. So perhaps it's too late for me. You, however, still have time to learn how to conduct yourself without coming across like a fool.

But I doubt that will happen.
Nah my sole purpose in life is to be as childish and dull, as I can.
But I respect your age sir.
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03-15-2013 , 12:01 AM
Then I congratulate you, for your life's goal is accomplished!
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03-15-2013 , 08:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Czech Rays
I think your thoughts here are reasonable. However, for us to be unclear on the rules of the game before we are judged for eternity seems to be a little, dare I say, unfair, on the part of the arbiter. It seems hard to reconcile this within a recognisable moral framework.

This is what I am seeking an explanation for... the lack of clarity.

This is it in a nutshell. Why does God want us to make a leap of faith to know him? In absence of other explanations, this would simply make it more likely that we would get it wrong, and fall further from him.
So I've been toying with providing an inadequate response to this or zumby's methodology thread because I think they're related.

I consider faith, in the sense I think you mean, necessary due to the lack of a clear methodology for discerning true religious claims from false. If I accept Carrier's hierarchy of methodologies, and I think I do, then I have to accept faith as a failure of those methodologies to answer the questions left to it. This seems reasonable given that these very questions pertain to things I don't think we can know and so fall outside the remit of those methodologies.

A consequence of this is that I consider faith an inadequate source of a moral framework. If we can't apply those methodologies to questions we can't know we can apply them to outcomes that we do. It's also a reason I can't reconcile my belief in God with the concept of a God that judges us by how we know him.

That said my faith is all over my moral framework, my values are informed by it my worldview is framed by it and I consider it an entirely positive contributor to who I am. I won't claim that faith is necessary for an entirely moral worldview nor will I claim that faith legitimises my moral framework. It may do personally but that alone is inadequate.
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03-16-2013 , 11:49 AM
It would help of OP would provide the source of where he got this notion: "Why does God want us to make a leap of faith to know him?" Is it from the Bible? Many Christians use "faith" to mean "trust" in God.
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