Jib's questions in that post are totally reasonable. He's basically being a skeptic about why he cares about truth. I really can't help but think that you're only attacking the post because of who made it. The questions in the OP are ones I've often asked of myself, and it would surprise me quite a bit if you were unwilling to ask those same questions.

The OP is all questions, he doesn't express his position there. He expresses it here. The next two posts after that one are also relevant.

The OP was not a characterization of my beliefs, but just a question that I have pondered at times. Have you really never questioned if "truth" is truly worth chasing?

Have you really never looked at someone that really did not care much if their beliefs are an accurate reflection of reality, but it made them feel right so the continued with these beliefs, and felt a little envious at their happiness?

I have a close friend who is not particularly bright. Many of his beliefs no real grounding and if you were to explain that to him he would not quite understand nor would he really care. He goes with what "makes sense" to him and then moves on. He is not concerned with whether or not he is wrong and spends no time seeking the answers to the big questions in life. He just lives his life. He is a good person and cares about right and wrong in a moral sense. He is blissfully happy in his ignorance.

While I struggle to try and find answers to things that may be unanswerable and constantly am in a state of reexamining my current beliefs to find where the flaws are. Now I get a certain level of enjoyment out of this, but on the whole I have to wonder if it is worth it. That is what this thread is about.

I cannot believe you have really never thought like this. I kinda assumed it was a prerequisite to seeking truth.

I've said this about atheist many times... very nice post Jib.

its a good thing you told me im not even close. had you not, i would have assumed i was close.

thx for the douchebag response.

what have you read in the past year that has challenged your religious beliefs in some form?

or perhaps you could expand on what it is you do to "constantly reexamine your current beliefs"...

On Topic: the world is really confusing without a generous helping of truth. Although I don't especially mind being confused, it's not my preference.

Off Topic: I'm making JoeyDiamonds the first poster to go on my ignore list since the forum switch, and humbly submit that others should do the same. Worst...poster...ever...srsly.

The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. To answer your question, no, I've never felt jealous of other people's delusions.

I was not trying to sound like a smart-ass, sometimes I do not have enough time at hand to write an elaborate response. You generally write well thought-out responses and contribute to the forums, so here is the longer response:

Seeing a link between happiness and truth (however you conceive it) is inherently problematic. For all we know, the "truth" is that we evolved from lesser primates and we live a short life destined to death.

The "noble lies" concocted by the philosophers and theologians, at least from the days of Plato on, do not hold ground anymore and are increasingly unbelievable even for uneducated common people. Religions, all of them, are elaborate shadow-plays in which the dead gods are shamelessly paraded before human beings, desperate to believe in something, anything, to no avail.

The seventeenth-century idea of transferring the idea of "Truth" (with the capital T) from the religious realm to the scientific may still convince some scientific workers and lesser scientific minds, but by and large has lost its grip in the minds of serious philosophers of science and scientists themselves. The "order" of the universe, assumed in all sorts of scientific paradigms, may just be a "local" order, observable only in some tiny part of our universe, and for all we know, the existence consists of "dark matter" and, even more unsettling, "dark energy" (which is just another way of saying that we do not know **** about it) making us even more unimportant than we generously assume sometimes.

This is the truth, or the "deadly truth" as Nietzsche called it, (forget about the idiot's remark about Nietzsche, he is pretty much the only relevant philosopher for our pathetic late modernity) and if it makes you happy, good for you.

Cheers

Happiness has nothing to do with truth and truth has nothing to do with happiness. If you are trying to mix the two, you are doing it wrong.

/thread

I suppose it's a matter of opinion. To me, these are not reasonable questions. As I said, it goes to show how different people's thinking can be. I strive to live within reality and I can't understand how anyone could question the importance or value of knowing the truth about as many things as possible.

Please...

I can only say that you're wrong. And where did I attack? I simply said it explains a lot and it does. I wasn't even referring to Jib personally, so much as I was referring to the difference in how the theist and skeptical mind works.

I have asked whether knowing the truth is helpful to all people at all times and I can appreciate there are instances where it's probably not.

For instance, if a theist were on his deathbed and found comfort in heaven and god as death nears, I would not trouble him with what I believe is the truth. Let him have his comfort.

In fact, there are some who would not wish to know they have a terminal illness or are in a situation where death is near and certain. To people who would undergo great stress. There are other situations such as when a loved dies an agonizing death. Many would prefer not to know the truth. For them, I acknowledge that it might be best to let them believe something which is false. But for me and many others, we'd want to know! We'd always prefer the truth! This speaks to the difference in how people think. Which is all I meant when I said, "That explains a lot".

To put some context in my comment, I said this in another thread:

Basically I took the lust for truth too far. Like most posters on this board, trying to find a better approximation of the truth is a very important life goal for me. It's why I always get so excited when I find out I'm wrong about something because that means I've just gotten closer to some kind of truth. Being right doesn't change my reality. It may serve the ego, but it's ultimately boring. That is why I've always loved this quote:

"Being wrong is erroneously associated with failure when in fact to be proven wrong should be celebrated for it is elevating someone to a new level of understanding, furthering awareness. The fact is there is no such thing as a smart human being for it is merely a matter of time before their ideas are updated, changed, or eradicated."

The problem is I have a tendency to take this philosophy too far. When I see other people around me who are "wrong" about something I tend to wanna correct them. I feel like I'm helping them when I do this. (I don't do this to strangers, just people I'm close with) But more times than not, all I'm doing is pissing them off. Most people don't wanna be corrected. Most people don't care if their beliefs are logical or based on sound evidence. Most people work all day and just wanna come home and relax. They don't need some pedantic douchebag trying to teach them something.

So anyways, I ended up with this Catholic girl who I thought was beautiful, who was awesome in bed, who I got along with better than any girl I had been with before. She had some silly beliefs and I wanted her to "see the light". So I would often bring up these sensitive subjects, and sometimes make fun of her beliefs, and show her youtube videos that would piss her off. I didn't realize it at the time but I was constantly tormenting her and finally she had had enough.

Two weeks ago, she broke up with me. She told me that she had a lot of fun with me, but there's no way we could make it long term. She wants to raise her kids Catholic and pro-life, and she thinks I'm too passionate in my beliefs to put up with that. But the sad truth is I don't really care about those issues that much. I care about her much much more. I'm 31 and she's the first girl I even felt like I loved and to keep her I really wouldn't care if the kids were raised Catholic or pro-life. But she didn't buy that, and given the douchebag way I was treating her, she has a right to give me no credibility.

So I guess my point is, caring about the truth can be taken too far to the point where you drive people you love crazy, and that can do some real damage to your life. It's embarrassing that it took me til 31 to realize that. I've always been slow in the maturity department.

Anyways, I'm not the type to sit around and feel sorry for myself. Today I just had an awesome first date with a very hot girl and...........she's Muslim. If she likes me and things work out, this time I will not step all over her passionate beliefs just because I think they're silly or incorrect. This time I will fully support her by respecting her beliefs no matter what I think of them. If I wanna trash someone's precious beliefs I'll just post on 2+2.

Get back to me when she's dragging your kids into a mosque at age 2

I have, and for me it is. But as I responded to Justin A, I'll concede that for some it might not be. Now I actually pity those people who prefer false comfort over truth but they're out there.

I can assure you I could never envy such a person. Like I said, I pity them, but recognize it might be best for them. I'd also respect their wishes if they preferred not knowing the truth about something. I certainly wouldn't force it on them. I try to force it on theists, because I presume their participation in this forum is of their own volition.

I know people like this too. I am NOT saying that they are not great people or are any less of a friend. But like you said... They are usually not too bright. Or at the very least, not the brightest among your friends. But hey, whatever makes your boat float, I guess. If someone is happy being blissfully ignorant, then that's up to them. Personally, I am not happy unless I am seeking the truth about things. And when I don't know the truth, it fills me with great curiosity. To me, that's exciting!

[quote]While I struggle to try and find answers to things that may be unanswerable and constantly am in a state of reexamining my current beliefs to find where the flaws are. [quote]

Well, this is different. When something is unanswerable, it is human nature to form a tendency towards towards an answer even when none is available. Take the question, where did the universe come from? I happen to fancy the notion of a multi-verse. But I can no more prove that than you can prove to me that god did it. But such unanswerable questions are fun to contemplate, aren't they?

Well for me, it's a no-brainer. What can be more worth while than learning? Learning more about someone you love, learning about nature, learning about things you enjoy? Like how to cook, how to become a better husband, person, etc. Wouldn't you want your children to grow up to be excited about learning? Learning is a search for the truth about things. To me, that's exciting. To me, that is what life is all about!

I pretty much have these thoughts too. To what extent is it worth finding the truth and expressing it? For some people, dying or martyrdom is too much, but it really isn't if you believe in the 'olam haba ( the world to come ~ "afterlife" ). Some were spared martyrdom ( e.g., Enoch, Elijah and the "disciple whom Yeshua especially loved" ), but many were not ( Paul and the other apostles, "John the Baptist" ). In more modern times, I would think that Martin Luther King Jr. knew it was likely he would be killed, but in the end, I would think he thought his "social activism" was worth it.

I sometimes have disagreements with some "Protestant practices" and beliefs but often I don't voice them and don't believe they are critically important - they aren't as important as 1) recognizing the "true God" is the "God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel", 2) recognizing Yeshua is the Messiah and mediator between men and Hashem and 3) the teachings of Yeshua give a more complete understanding of the Torah and "kingdom life".

Even in dire circumstances, the "voice of truth" should be heard; e.g., the following story ( from http://www.torah.org/learning/tehillim/ch96.html ):

This is where I realized I don't really care about truth. I used to think this mattered to me, but now I realize that if I love a girl I will let her raise the kids religious if she wants. That may make me a sellout but I don't care. I've never had a taste of this love thing before until recently and I want it again and I'm not gonna let someone's metaphysical bs beliefs get in the way of that. Whether my kids end up Muslim, Christian, or atheist, they can still be happy people. I will do my best to teach them the virtues of free thinking and skeptical inquiry, but I will not subvert their mother's initiative anymore than that.

Jesus what have you been sipping?

It's a depressing old life.

To pick one ever-so-small bone, you say "noble lies" concocted by the likes of Plato are now increasingly unbelievable for even uneducated common people; I say show me an uneducated common person that has even heard of Plato, let alone has the ability to understand what the chuff he might have been going on about, and I might agree with your incredibly drab worldview.



H

well thank you for a much fuller response.

So that's it, you question it once and your done? And what is there to pity about these people, and what is false comfort? How can it be distinguished between true comfort?

If something is best for someone, what sort of value does truth hold? What are the benefits? And I think that this is really heart of why you and I are different, you make this to be a theist/atheist issue. As if you have found truth in atheism and poor little me I just cannot get there as a theist. You do realize that you could be wrong, right? I mean are you so arrogant that you believe you have already obtained truth about the existence of God, and that there is no chance that I could have seen something that you did not? Or maybe I don't let my bias get to me as much as you do, and therefore I came to the right conclusion and you are stuck with a false conclusion possibly doomed to hold on to false truth because of the comfort that it gives you? You do realize that if you are a true skeptic you must admit that this is a possibility, right?

This is truly where we are divided. You have set up a "no true scotsman" fallacy where the only people that are truly seeking truth and are truly rational and truly honest with themselves are atheists. I on the other hand actually believe that people can be honest, rational, and seek truth and yet come to a different conclusion then me. Do you not realize that this is more than likely just a comfort mechanism for you to validate your beliefs?

Well, I've thought hard about what's more important to me... Truth or comfort? The answer for me, is truth.

I pity them because they are not strong enough to face up to the truth, I guess. What I meant by false comfort is comfort under false pretenses.



No, no, no. I do not see this as a theist/atheist issue. I'm sure there are atheists who would prefer peace of mind over truth as well when it comes to unpleasant things. It just so happens that the theist/atheist issue is a part of it and you did make this post in a religious forum. So I assumed you were asking about truth in a religious context. But I think this applies in many other areas of life too.


I do not now, and have never claimed to have absolute certainty when it comes to god. I could be shown evidence right now that would cause me to change my mind. Perhaps if you could show me the 'something' you've seen that I have not, it would immediately change my mind. Until then, I have to think you were simply hallucinating or in a state of delusion. Again, I do not claim to have the 'truth' about god. I simply have no reason to think one exists, just as I have no reason to think unicorns exist. Show me some evidence, and I could change my belief tomorrow.


You guys really like to pin the 'bad guy' label on atheists, don't you? I am a skeptic only when it comes to believing something far fetched for which there is not sufficient evidence to support it. You are trying to make it out to be something far more than that, but it's not. I believe things based on the existence evidence to support a belief. Period. To that extent, I care about what's true and what's not true. I seek the truth wherever possible and always prefer it to believing something that is false. The key is to always being open to shown that you're wrong. You can show me I'm wrong right now and I'll change my belief. It's that simple. You make it out to be some bad, nasty atheist thing when it's not.

Again, you misunderstand me. I'm not suggesting that some theists do in fact seek out the truth and have simply come to a different conclusion than I have. When this is the case, let's talk. That's why I'm here. If you can convince me, then I'll go to your side. Or perhaps (zero% chance, I'm sure), I can convince someone that the evidence reaches a different conclusino. But this has nothing to do with your initial post, which I took to suggest that the truth might not be important. Whether I'm right or wrong, or whether you're right or wrong, I declare the truth to be extremely important. To me, it's everything. If you or others don't care about what is true, then I fail to see any point for carrying on a dialog. That's all I was saying.

I wouldn't call it a bad opinion. More like gun shy. If enough atheists go off on you continuously over a period of time you start to make group associations. I can always make an exception for an individual though. I always wonder why certain posters in the habit of trolling aren't banned on here and SMPs mods treat RGT as a play pen for the unruly. If its so unruly then why aren't the guys throwing temper tantrums banned? That's what you do with children acting out. You isolate them. Put them on time out so they get the message their actions are inappropriate. Of course maybe the mods secretly approve of the guys throwing the tantrums behavior. I have many times responded to these trollers who make an apparently reasonable post only to have them go gonzo in the next post. If you can't trust the forum to manage these types of people its not irrational to conclude the group includes some crazies.

As for your insistence on a skeptical approach to religion I believe its wrong because it eliminates the very thing you can find before you find it. The book of Wisdom says as much as do many other places in the scriptures. Read Psalm 28 and notice verse 5. When I imagine God now I often get a picture of energy that surrounds the Earth. How do you make contact with that energy. For Christians its a relationship. Relationships take time to build and establish. They usually aren't made overnight.

I'm confused how this did not end the thread

What? I have never seen anybody as happy as I am in my whole life (no kidding, totally honest). The fleeting experience of consciousness is something I love, and I am truly passionate about all of the things in my life (such as my wife, my family, teaching, reading, chess, poker, pipe tobacco....pipe tobacco mmmmm).

And you do not have to actually know about Plato to have problems in believing the noble lies.

Cheers

No problem at all.

Cheers

semi-grunched.... seems like another not so black and white topic.

I guess my answer regarding the truth is, purely based on experience and my thoughts, that the vast majority of instances, the truth has more utility then a delusion. Certainly there are happy lies that we are content to have but, I offer, that often in those cases we'd be better off with the truth.

I think you would have to debate individual instances of which instances are fine as delusions.

If you're discussing religion... then I suppose it could be huge. Let's say that followers of Zeus had it all along. And let's say there is an afterlife. Then living in the delusion that your religion is correct certainly is harmful.

Let's say there is no god/afterlife. I imagine that would be a very useful piece of info too. While some people would no doubt be sad (and let's face it, many wouldn 't care if the 'truth came out'), there would be positive values too - for millions, more personal time for productivity, rest, etc. Less religion inspired wars/bigotry/etc. (of course people will find other things to kill each other over but this would be one less) less guilt/fear of hell, etc.