please explain why you think a perfect being would have desires? wouldn't a perfect being be ... perfectly satisfied?

Which, of course, means that god wanted something that he did not have and was therefore not perfect.

In your vision of wholly loving someone... do you set up a series of rules for your children/loved ones to follow that, if they don't, they are punished for eternally?

Hehe, you guys are good at this. Looks like you guys were ready.

Perfect means 100% light, 0% darkness. Completely righteous, absolutely no sin. There is no relation with this and being "perfectly satisfied."

For example, a perfect being will be unsatisified if there is injustice left alone. The feeling of unsatisfaction or the desire of justice does not make him imperfect. He is still righteous and without sin.

Desiring to have your own son is not a sin. You may be confusing "coveting your neighbor's property" with "desiring to have something you do not have."

He probably did it to impress a chick.

No. And actually, that is not what God is doing.

God's nature is holiness and perfect love. Because of his nature, he loves righteousness, and hates sin.

The definition of sin is this: anything done outside of love and trust for God.

All the laws he gave to us are based on that single definition. The laws are there only as guidelines. The only real "law" is that you follow God's nature of perfect love.

Because of his nature, God cannot allow sin into his home. He detests sin. "Eternal punishment" is his wrath against sin being poured out. It is not actually punishment, but simply a reflection of his nature.

When you strike a man for raping your daughter, you are not doing it to punish him. You are only pouring out your wrath on him. Even after he is sentenced to prision or killed and receives his punishment, your wrath against him will continue to exist in your heart.

Let's say you had two daughters and one son. Let's say your son loves raping your daughters. Let's say he rapes both of them again, and again, and again. And he loves doing it.

Let's say you forgive him the first couple of times, because he is your son. You try to show him that he is doing wrong. The definition of wrong comes not from society or from random rules, but from your heart, and from your nature. You hate what he is doing, because of your nature of love for your children.

Let's say he laughs at you, slaps you in the face, and continues to rape your daughters.

You will be furious and pour out your wrath on him. Not because of some random rules. Not because you hate him. But because of your nature of love.

you make God out to be some pretty petty and powerless father ... and only in the mind of Christian is unbelief in a God whom little evidence exists for equivalent to raping your sisters on a daily basis and laughing at your father.

But what was there to love before he created anything? Can you see how this doesn't make sense. Are you saying that god wanted to love something and was therefore, unfulfilled? Can you be perfect yet, unfulfilled?


This is why it's hard for me to have a dialog with a theist without my sounding condescending or sarcastic. But can you see how others might interpret what you stated above? Like once upon a time, there's this supreme being. He was so totally awesome that he said to himself, "I am so stupendous and wonderful that I just shouldn't be keeping all this greatness to myself. So why don't I create something to share my incredible greatness with?".

Sounds like I'm being flippant, right? But I really don't understand... Is this really how you see the state of god before creation? Of course, the other thing is, with nothing else to compare with, why would he think he was great in the first place? Wouldn't it just be normal for him? Wouldn't he just think of himself as a normal god wondering what the heck he's doing all alone?

This does make some sense to me.

This does not make sense to me. It doesn't make sense why god would create a place for us that is merely a blip. Unless of course, this life is just some sort of test for us to go through to make sure we are up to grade of his worthiness. Is that what you believe?

In a nut shell, the ends justify the means. If it means that God could not share this eternal bliss with beings without risking the world the way that it is, then the risk would be the "moral" thing to do.

Well, not really. This is just a blip, remember? Not much of a gift if you ask me. Now if he had let us go against his will for all of eternity, you might be able to talk me into that being somewhat of a good gift. But the blip that he gave can't be much skin off his nose.

Anyway, that's how I see it.

none of this addresses eternal damnation. You said god creates us to love us. I can conceive of no definition of perfect love that includes eternal damnation for my children.

I think that love in some form can exist before there is someone to love. I think this is similar to the question "if a tree falls in the wood and no one is around, does it make a sound". Now if you are honest with yourself these questions are not easy and very difficult for us to talk about with our language limitations. Kinda like asking what was "before" time. Doesn't really make sense, but that does not mean that nothing can exist outside of time.

I don't think that God created us because of a 'gap' in himself, but basically as the ultimate altruistic gesture. That we exist for the benefit of ourselves, not God.

I understand where you are coming from and expect you to react the way that you are. I knew it was coming when I wrote it. But I really do not have this concept fully articulated, and writing is not my best form of communication. I if we were talking I would be able to make it sound a little less like God is the ultimate Frat Boy, or something. I think that you have to keep in mind that it is not really arrogant if it is true. Also, bare in mind I am not a philosopher and I did not get this out of some book, nor have I been contemplating this for the last 20 years. I am just a lowly old car salesman that only went to one semester of college in order to chase the almighty dollar. I will try to come up with a way of better articulating what I am trying to say

These types of questions are really hard to answer. I mean, how could I know what is going through the mind of God? In my head it went down "You know what people would be pretty ****ing cool, let's do that!" Any words that I use are just anthropomorphizing and really cannot explain much.

At least I got something right.

No. I don't believe that it is a test, but that if choice is necessary for the love relationship then a period has to exist where we can choose. That would be what this life is. I don't in anyway think that this is our chance to "prove" ourselves to God, but our chance to accept his gift.

I said power, not gift. The ability to go against your creator is pretty powerful. Yes, not as powerful as going against him for eternity, but why would he do that? I don't think thought that he was exactly stressing over this.

Fair enough. I can only answer your questions to the best of my meager ability. I don't have this stuff figured out, I am just trying to answer what goes through my head.

I do believe these questions are important and I have enjoyed the thread and thank you for having a civil conversation, even after I pissed you off by saying RGT has strengthened my belief in God

That's certainly as good a guess as any of the other guesses in this thread.

OP,

Questions of the form "why did God create man or the universe in this particular way?" can have either of two answers:

A. "The Bible says..."

Or

B. "I don't know."

Good is what God wants.

How does one know what God wants? Is the defense "I did it because God told me to" valid even if the action goes against everything society dictates as good?

So in your eyes, everything that happened in the OT is good? would it be bad to not do what God wants?

One reads the Bible.

If a society dictates evil, then going against that society is valid.

If God did it, then yes, by definition.

If intentionally, it would be.

do you find the bible 100% clear 100% of the time? have you ever been wrong about your interpretation of the bible? if not, why are so many people's interpretations different and wrong?

not sure what you mean by this

earlier you said "good is what God wants", and now you say that if God *did* it, then its good. So which is it? is it good when God commands his people to kill any entire city of people? Is it good when God commands Moses to force his people to drink water mixed with gold?

I'm just going to address two of the above issues.

The question about what is good is similar to the question about what is moral. If God is ultimate there can't be an impersonal definition of good independent of Him, otherwise He wouldn't be ultimate. The atheist has the same problem, just as in morality - either something is ultimate or there is no such thing as good or right.

As to the image of God, if read in the context of what the Bible says about God, it clearly doesn't mean we are His physical image. Most theologians relate it to our moral sense, rationality, spirituality. I also think it applies to our ability to invent or be creative - and this relates to the will. God has created us so that our decisions are truly ours, even if nurture and nature play a role, there is still an element of our thoughts and actions that is truly ours in a way that we can't explain by outside forces. We have the power to actually do something that matters, for good or ill, in a creative way, a dim reflection of the original creative power of God. If we begin to grasp that we get an insight into God's own creative attribute. This is highly speculative but it's how I think of it.

Oh, and a third point. I tried to explain that we have to trust God that He is good and righteous and to indicate that it isn't blind faith. If you read the NT carefully you will find that the atheistic charge of blind faith is ludicrous - throughout an appeal is made to facts and evidence. The FAITH part involves trusting Someone who has shown that He is trustworthy - the opposite of blind faith.

John 10:

37"If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me;
38but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, BELIEVE THE WORKS, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father."

No. Yes.

Both. If God does it, it is good, in all instances.

"There you go being arrogant again. You are not in a position to know things about the nature of god" -- Stu Pidasso

It is a statement based on faith.

"Why is faith good? Why is not having evidence, good?" -- Bill Maher

Ding, ding! You've stumbled across the need for an infallible interpreter. Catholic apologist in the making!

God made us so Satan wouldnt be alone.

Who cares?
As you grow older you realise how futile your existance is.

1. God's nature is such that He can't create anyone like Him, for He is the only being who can possibly be self-existent. There are only two classifications of beings, the creator and the created. He is by definition in a class by himself.

2. God did not make people "imperfect". He made man in His image--that's an unbelievably marvelous place to be. We are higher than all the animals. We have a soul that will never cease to exist. We have the morality of God Himself--love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, justice, etc. We may have gone away from that, but this is how He created us.

3. God created us "according to His will", which means because He wanted to. We don't get more than that. We see the benefits for us, we can share in His glory, be like Him, be with Him, be part of Him. The greatest gift any created thing can be given is to be like the One who has not been created, the One who needs nothing, who is above all, who is holy.

4. This is my greatest point. You really come from the perspective of someone who doesn't know God. If you want to know why I married a certain girl, I can give you technical reasons--she's hot, she's got a great personality, she's educated, she's kind and selfless, she wants the same things in life, etc. But if you really want to know the deeper reasons for why I feel in love with this girl, you have to know me. You have to see through my eyes and understand where I'm coming from. If you really want to understand the answers to your questions, if those are truly honest questions, you need to study who God says He is from His perspective, from how He presents Himself. If you want to study the Bible with me to find out who God is, go ahead and PM me, I'd love to help, and after doing that, you will surely understand the answers to these questions. Unfortunately without getting to know God, you'll never understand. You'll just remain wise in your own eyes, passing judgment on someone you don't know.

How would he get to know you? Would he read what someone else wrote about you?