Quote:
But what was there to love before he created anything? Can you see how this doesn't make sense. Are you saying that god wanted to love something and was therefore, unfulfilled? Can you be perfect yet, unfulfilled?
I think that love in some form can exist before there is someone to love. I think this is similar to the question "if a tree falls in the wood and no one is around, does it make a sound". Now if you are honest with yourself these questions are not easy and very difficult for us to talk about with our language limitations. Kinda like asking what was "before" time. Doesn't really make sense, but that does not mean that nothing can exist outside of time.
I don't think that God created us because of a 'gap' in himself, but basically as the ultimate altruistic gesture. That we exist for the benefit of ourselves, not God.
Quote:
This is why it's hard for me to have a dialog with a theist without my sounding condescending or sarcastic. But can you see how others might interpret what you stated above? Like once upon a time, there's this supreme being. He was so totally awesome that he said to himself, "I am so stupendous and wonderful that I just shouldn't be keeping all this greatness to myself. So why don't I create something to share my incredible greatness with?".
I understand where you are coming from and expect you to react the way that you are. I knew it was coming when I wrote it. But I really do not have this concept fully articulated, and writing is not my best form of communication. I if we were talking I would be able to make it sound a little less like God is the ultimate Frat Boy, or something. I think that you have to keep in mind that it is not really arrogant if it is true. Also, bare in mind I am not a philosopher and I did not get this out of some book, nor have I been contemplating this for the last 20 years. I am just a lowly old car salesman that only went to one semester of college in order to chase the almighty dollar. I will try to come up with a way of better articulating what I am trying to say
Quote:
Sounds like I'm being flippant, right? But I really don't understand... Is this really how you see the state of god before creation? Of course, the other thing is, with nothing else to compare with, why would he think he was great in the first place? Wouldn't it just be normal for him? Wouldn't he just think of himself as a normal god wondering what the heck he's doing all alone?
These types of questions are really hard to answer. I mean, how could I know what is going through the mind of God? In my head it went down "You know what people would be pretty ****ing cool, let's do that!" Any words that I use are just anthropomorphizing and really cannot explain much.
Quote:
This does make some sense to me.
At least I got something right.
Quote:
This does not make sense to me. It doesn't make sense why god would create a place for us that is merely a blip. Unless of course, this life is just some sort of test for us to go through to make sure we are up to grade of his worthiness. Is that what you believe?
No. I don't believe that it is a test, but that if choice is necessary for the love relationship then a period has to exist where we can choose. That would be what this life is. I don't in anyway think that this is our chance to "prove" ourselves to God, but our chance to accept his gift.
Quote:
Well, not really. This is just a blip, remember? Not much of a gift if you ask me. Now if he had let us go against his will for all of eternity, you might be able to talk me into that being somewhat of a good gift. But the blip that he gave can't be much skin off his nose.
I said power, not gift. The ability to go against your creator is pretty powerful. Yes, not as powerful as going against him for eternity, but why would he do that? I don't think thought that he was exactly stressing over this.
Quote:
Anyway, that's how I see it.
Fair enough. I can only answer your questions to the best of my meager ability. I don't have this stuff figured out, I am just trying to answer what goes through my head.
I do believe these questions are important and I have enjoyed the thread and thank you for having a civil conversation, even after I pissed you off by saying RGT has strengthened my belief in God