I have trouble understanding how a perfect being could have wants or desires. wouldn't perfection imply ... perfect satisfaction? I mean ... isnt the definition of heaven perfection and not having anymore wants or desires?

To understand why God made me is to understand why God made me not to understand.

There’s a secret that I’m not supposed to know. Or am I?

The responsibility for creation must be clearly understood.

I believe All That Is(god) created us to experience us as an individual.

Lestat, what do you have in mind by the term God?

The intervening kind. The personal god who answers prayers and performs the occasional miracle.

I have to admit Jib, this is an impressive response from you. No shying away or circumventing the question. Just an honest response. I respect that.

I don't have time tonight, but I'll follow up more tomorrow. I do still have a few questions about what you wrote.

Well how can an intervening God exist without someting to intervene in?

but why such imperfect beings like humans? i mean God had already created angels, why did he need humans? And why humans + all the millions and millions of animals/incests/bacteria/etc?

so many questions, so few answers.

damn fine response there sir

so lets get this straight.

1. God created angels because ...?
2. God then created the entire universe (including places that will never be observed or accessible by man) because ...?
3. God then created animals (that have gone extinct since the first man) because ....?
4. God then created humans because ...?

really confused, seriously

This is one of the most difficult questions. I think it's harder than the problem of evil, for instance.

One reason it's so hard is the Bible doesn't give a pat answer - it doesn't say "And God created (whatever) because ...."

My conclusion is that it isn't a fundamentally important question - at least not for us in this life. If we can't answer it on our own, and if God doesn't tell us, then we simply have to accept that He doesn't think we need to know.

There are indirect indications which give us assurance that there is a reason - we believe that God is good and rational and therefore it's logical that He had good and rational reasons for creating. Genesis 1 says that after He had created He called it all good. So even if we don't know WHY we do know that is was GOOD. I think the fact that we were created in His image also gives us a clue - we can understand to some extent beauty, goodness and other intangible concepts, and these things have value.

But this is a question that addresses the very essence of God and I think it's just wrong to be dogmatic in our answers. Christian theologians embrace the concept of mystery concerning those things which are beyond our ability and about which God hasn't spoken. That's part of faith - based on what we do know and have experienced concerning God we then can trust Him about those things we don't yet know or understand. His creation is good even if we can't see all the reasons why.

"so lets get this straight.

1. God created angels because ...?
2. God then created the entire universe (including places that will never be observed or accessible by man) because ...?
3. God then created animals (that have gone extinct since the first man) because ....?
4. God then created humans because ...?

really confused, seriously"



I actually have a link to a different internet forum which answers these questions, http://www.ohnowait, you're talking about some seriously unfathomable heavyweight stuff, and you honestly expect not to be confused? Or other people to provide answers? Come on, this is pure rhetoric, there are mysteries in life whether you believe in God or not that people are simply not equipped to deal with, so why not be reasonable?

More important than answering your questions I will say this:

1. Nobody will ever know the answers to these things

2. What you are essentially doing by saying "so, if God is perfect why did he need to create us etc." is applying the logic and conditions of your flawed earthly mind to a hypothetical being which, if he were to exist, would not be bound by such things. It is enough to say such things are a mystery, and if you are not content with that, it is enough to offer the analogy that the railway track your arguments are running on could travel 100, 1000 or 1,000,000 miles but it would never get anywhere because the answers it seeks quite simply exist on a completely different set of track that your train isn't running on.



H

Pretty bold claim of your. Just because *you* will never know the answers doesnt mean someone else won't. As a matter of fact, I'm sure Pletho has an answer and I would love to hear it.

If God gave man the capability to reason and conceptualize Him, then it is only reasonable that if we are going to give God the attribute of "perfection" it would be based on a human's understanding of the word "perfection".

Regardless, your point is completely unrelated to my (and my other's) questions. Its not that "God is so above us that he has reasons to create humans thats beyond our understanding", its that, by definition, a perfect being should not have:

1. wants
2. desires
3. disappointments
4. anger
5. failure

All things that can be attributed to the God of the Bible. Perhaps not the God you believe in, in which case, to be take a book out of your page, I couldn't care less about your beliefs. I'm here to discuss the forms of Christianity as believed and practiced by 99% of the world, not your strange version of theism.

I honestly have trouble understanding how a perfect being would not want to create beings to have a relationship with.

If having a relationship with a perfect being is the ultimate gift, then how could that being with hold that? Could a being that is perfect love withhold the ultimate expression of that love?

No need for jealousy,just amazement that so many still cling to Dark Age superstition.

even if I buy your point, why did God first create angels? When did he then create animals? and then finally humans?

Secondly, God is withholding that ultimate expression of love every time someone dies and goes to "hell" (whatever version of hell you want).

I had a whole thing written out, but I deleted it because really the answers to these question are just pure speculation on my part. I don't know, I just know what kinda makes sense to me.

But he isn't withholding if people are choosing this path.

Wow, have I not been paying attention? No offense is meant, but since when have religious people been making posts like this? (I found Jib's post to be honest and sincere as well). Usually, atheists are the ones saying 'we don't know' when asked a question like 'where did the universe come from', etc. Again, please don't take offense, but rarely have I ever heard a religious person admit that they 'Didn't know' the answer to something. I find it refreshing. When pressed, it's usually 'God works in mysterious ways', or 'we can't know the mind of God'. But here, you seem to be implying that there isn't an answer to be had.



I've always struggles with what the bible/god means by 'GOOD'. This will sound as though I'm being flippant or sarcastic, but I'm really not...

Presumably, you think god created the earth and that it was good. I don't see the earth as being good. I see a raging, volatile, and violent planet with earthquakes, killer storms, eruptions, tsunamis, floods, harsh weather, poisen lakes, caves, etc. These things have killed millions upon millions over the ages.

Now I look at this, and simply see a cooling planet in a constant state of change. But again, you presumably see this planet as good. I hate to borrow a phrase from Christopher Hitchens (I also think he can be a pompous snob), 'the earth can support life on some of its surface, some of the time'. So my question is, what is meant by 'GOOD'? This is another question I've always had as a believer that I could not reconcile. What do you think about it NR?



I've also struggled a great deal with this. What does 'in His image', mean? I presume you're not talking physically. I don't think you picture God has having a liver, or small intestines, a urinary tract, etc., right? So 'in His image' most certainly has nothing to do with physical image.

It also can't mean qualities of power, since we can't perform miracles, etc.

So does it mean in the image of quailties such as goodness, love, and charity? I've always found this doubtful by looking at the state of the world. Man is greedy, hateful, jealous, lustful, etc. I'm assuming you're going to say that this is where 'free will' comes in. But I assume that God also has free will and doesn't have these issues. So how much 'in his image' can we be?

I agree. I think it's almost always wrong to be dogmatic in our answers. But I hope it's not a sin to at least think about it, and ask questions if only to ourselves.

Oops. Did you just answer here all that I asked above? This is where faith comes in and we just have to trust his reasons are good even when we can't see why? Is this the answer that satisfies you? I've always find it so hard to accept this as an answer for myself. Probably a big reason why I'm no longer a Christian. I just don't have what it takes, I guess.

"Pretty bold claim of your. Just because *you* will never know the answers doesnt mean someone else won't. As a matter of fact, I'm sure Pletho has an answer and I would love to hear it."


I bet you would. He still doesn't know the answers though, does he?



H

(please use the "quote" functionality, it makes your posts easier to read)

How do you *know* that he *doesn't know* the answers? sounds pretty hypocritical to me.

So he could run a computer simulation on how he could have been created.

I can say that I, for one, disagree. As an atheist, the world/life/the universe is still pretty interesting without having to have gods, angels and demons.

I do agree that we don't have an answer for "the meaning of life." Though when I had religion that didn't really answer the question in a satisfying way.

I'm comfortable with the fact that it doesn't have to have a meaning. (having a kid in the "why" stage, I realize its silly to just ask "why" about everything. Something can just be without having a higher purpose. For some reason, this bothers people.)

I already said, nobody knows. He might have an idea, or he might be able to quote someone else who had an idea, but nobody KNOWS.

That is all, i'm off to cook some food :-)



H

My opinion as a theist: God created us for the same reason we desire to have our own children. Not the desire of maintaining the human race. But the desire to wholly love someone/something that is a part of you.