I'm curious why you think god made us. Please don't just blurt out some answer, but think deeply about it, because I'm trying to understand your beliefs...

So once upon a time, there was this god. Was he not content with the way things were? Was he lonely? So for whatever the reason (which hopefully you'll provide), he created the universe and then... Us.

Now, I can't help ask this question: Why would he make us so imperfect? So inferior to himself? Obviously, if you were creating something that you could love, you might not want to make that something greater than you, or give it greater powers than you have. But would you really want to make it so much weaker and flawed than you? If so, why?

Is it so you could have control over your creation? Boss it around and generally make yourself feel that much more superior? Or would it be so you'd have something to spend your time on nuturing and taking care of?

These are sincere questions I have. Even if I were to come to a point where I could accept the premise of god, I'd still have so many questions. These are just a starting few. Thanks.

We don't even understand the things that comprise the majority of the universe, how are we to even begin to pretend to comprehend a higher entity that could have created it? Maybe that's what upsets the doubters the most, that believers can have such certainty about the incomprehensible.

It's not that I believe I have figured out the answer, but that I have been told the answer.

I'll bite. By whom?

It's scary that people can say **** like this and expect not to be thought insane.

Jealous much?

Can you enlighten me then? Why did god create us? Was it out of loneliness? Boredom? Some other reason?

And why did he create us so imperfect? I really want to know.

Of what?

I have asked the same thing in this forum before (ie. if god is perfect, how could he have wanted something else, like us) and never really gotten anything resembling a response.

FYP

I can only give you what the bible mixed with speculation could tell us. As far as the true answer, who knows.

I have given my answers/speculations to these questions many times. Is it that you just don't care for them, or that you cannot remember them?

No, it was correct before.

no, I am pretty sure it was broke and I fixed it.

Lestat, you are not seeking a genuine answer to your question, you are seeking a bunch of lame responses that you can mow down with your razor-wired wit in front of a loving crowd of supporters.

If you were really interested in answering the questions you have posed here, you would dig out the tomes new and old that claim to offer insights into the areas you are probing the surface of, and you would learn from the horse's collective mouth, all about God and the nature of man and why we might be here. You might even meditate and try to come up with your own conclusions, and then go away and compare what was revealed to you in your altered state only to discover you are not the first person to propose such madness, which would then lead you deeper down the rabbit hole, and so on.

I have a spiritual bent, and it is for 3 reasons:

1: I had a NDE when I was 19
2: I have had mystical/spiritual experiences since
3: I have read lots of books dealing with matters of spirituality to better understand my position in life and the things I have experienced, by reading about those that have also experienced these things and many more and have an insight to offer beyond my level of understanding, I have read for countless hours about jungian psychology, the occult, ancient spiritual beliefs and mystery cults, myths and fables, Manly p Hall's "Secret Teachings of All Ages", books about jewish mysticism, christian mysticism, muslim mysticism (found that the most interesting strangely enough), crazy magic mysticism, alchemy, the saints, buddhism, revelatory texts loosely appended to existing religions, not to mention the bible, and a whole host of long-since forgotten hokum that I wouldn't even recognise if it were to materialise before my very eyes right now and land with a loud slapping noise on the desk in front of me.

My point?

After ALL that, I have a view on life that has a spiritual dimension added on to all the normal stuff that I would otherwise be dealing with, which doesn't really change much, but I never found out a single thing by asking people on an internet forum.

Do you really want an answer? Or are you just being lazy?

You were given an imperfect world in the knowledge that perfection is, was and always will be an impossibility, and you were given it to change for the better.

What are you doing about it?



H

Really? He says he's been told the answer to the universe's great questions. Even as a theist, you're cool with that? He's basically saying god talks directly to him. So he's a prophet. A real prophet. So you should follow him. Unless god speaks directly to you, too. In which case you're both insane.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auditory_hallucination

I personally found sanity to be dull and over-rated.



H

Gotcha. Citation of where responses were offered, please? Even something relatively vague from memory will do.

GOD LOVES ALL OF YOU
REMEMBER THAT

Jealous of being insane?

I don't recall seeing them. To be honest, I don't read every single post in the forum. I spot a thread topic that interests me, and browse through the responses, missing quite a few I'm sure. So if you've already answered this, I apologize. Can you re-state your position or at least link me to the other thread?

Even when I believed in a god, these were questions I had where I wasn't sure I was ever satisfied with the answers I could obtain.

As Deorum points out, I don't understand how a perfect god could be bored, or have needs (such as us to love him), etc. How you really thought about this for yourself? Or are you just going by answers you think you've found in a book. Don't you have your own curiosities?

this is the real reason for theism, that most people dont talk about. atheism is indeed dull and boring. i wont lie. the world is a lot more interesting and meaningful when you think angels and demons and god and satan are around us, acting in various ways, intervening, etc.

i miss how interesting the world was when i deluded myself.

Only partially true. Sure, I love a good smack down of faulty logic. But as I responded to BigErf, these are questions I had back when I believed in god. Questions that I could never get past. I wonder how many theists actually think these questions through for themselves in spite of what they're told by clergy or through a book. Those were never good enough for me. My own curiosity didn't allow me to just accept answers that made no sense to me. So if others have found a way to make sense of it, I'd sincerely like to know.

Are you speaking of the bible? As I said, the answers in the bible contradict what make sense to me. It seems to imply that god 'needs' to be loved. Needs to be worshiped, etc. That's fine, but then if it goes against my previous notion of god, which says he's all perfect. Do I have that wrong? Is it possible that god is in fact, imperfect and has needs?

I actually have tried meditation and like it.

Sorry, I can't decipher NDE. N... D... Experience?


It's a shame you don't spend more time in this forum. I'd be interested hear more of your views on spirituality and experiences. Unlike most atheists here, I consider myself spiritual as well. But probably not in the way you mean spiritual. For me, it has less to do with a god and more to do with a connection I feel to the universe as being made up of the very same 'stuff' as stars, etc. Anyway, you should post more often.

Really? I've always found the unknown mysteries of the universe far more interesting than when i was given the answers to them.

That's fine. That is typically how I read through this forum as well. I just didn't want to get into a post for you to respond "well, yeah I know what you think I just don't find it satisfactory"

Understood.

I think about this sort of stuff constantly. FWIW, I do feel this is a legit question, but I can only answer from my point of view, which might not be satisfactory for you.

As far as why I believe God made us, I believe that it is an extension of his love. When talking about the most perfect being, probably the most loving thing that he could do would be to create other beings to "share himself" with. I would not say that God created us out of some necessity to himself (like boredom or loneliness), but out of a desire to give the greatest gift he could to other beings. If the world we lived in now was perfect, an absolute utopia, wouldn't you want to have children to enjoy this utopia? There is a little more to be said, but let's start here.

As I have stated before, I believe that free will is necessary to have a love relationship with God. Which means that in order to share God's love he would have to risk the possibility of this world. Remember that at least in some christian theology, we did not start out this way, only ended up this way.

I think that you also have to take into account that in the scheme of eternity, this life is but a blip. In a nut shell, the ends justify the means. If it means that God could not share this eternal bliss with beings without risking the world the way that it is, then the risk would be the "moral" thing to do.

Also, I do not feel that we are "weak" in the sense that you seem to be describing. After all we have the power to go against our creator. In my opinion that is one of the greatest powers that God could give, and also gives him the most liability.

Ok, gotta eat, but this will get us started towards hopefully a fruitful discussion.

NED's are near death experiences.