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Who created God? Who created God?

09-22-2011 , 02:56 PM
one can not reason pure rationaly about god or who created him, without having something called belief. not neccessarily personal belief since the vast majority of our ancestors were believers, on a scale on which we, hopefully rational people cannot comprehend in this time of science and constant available information. nevertheless that belief is implemented in our genes, so that as ultima ratio most of us, before death or before facing the river on the bubble, cry out to god. irrational. yes. but the whole universe is irrational unless we make sense of it, which further includes knowledge we have or we dont have. using or exposing god as a x variable in a our equation of explaining the universe doesnt say nothing about his existence or non-existence of god. in the end it s a game of arguments which are based on beliefs. and if god exists, he didnt have to be created, since he is not/must not be under influence of space/time.
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09-23-2011 , 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Stu Pidasso
A pemanent stasis in which there is no matter, no useable energry and no flow of time is a dead universe. It is in every sense of the word the "end".
Not in "every sense". If the universe still exists in that permanent stasis, it has not "ended" in that sense, any more than a grocery bag ceases to exist when you take all the groceries out of it.

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The universe makes perfect sense except we don't understand it? Isn't that a contradiction? Isn't that saying the universe makes perfect sense except we can't make sense of it?
I gave you the example, which you ignored. Electrical storms "made sense" before humans understood how they worked. You didn't need Thor; you just needed to acknowledge that humans didn't yet understand how they worked.

This is just "God in the Gaps". There's something we don't yet understand, therefore it has to be God. But, in fact, the people who said that about electrical storms were wrong. They were ignorant. Just like you. They assumed, like you do, that if we don't yet have the explanation, it can't make sense without God.
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09-23-2011 , 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by duffe
To the bolded, sure. In fact, one of the most famous theologians in history, Thomas Aquinas, made a very similar argument. Aquinas argued that only that whose essence is ‘to be’ can be said to be its own necessary cause of existence. So, since the essence of ‘existence itself’ is ‘to be’ it would seem to follow that existence itself is its own necessary cause, which lead to Aquinas concluding: God is Being (Being defined as existence itself; not ‘a’ being). Of course, Aquinas spends a great deal of time arguing for why ‘existence itself’ has god-like attributes and consequently is God, but that’s another argument.
Correct...Let me also add that Thomas Aquinas took it almost entirely from the philosophy of the Islamic medieval philosopher Avicenna (Ibn Sina), one of the most important philosophers of all time. I do not want to press the case too strongly here, but pretty much anything worthwhile within medieval "Christian Philosophy" is a reworking and restatement of Islamic philosophical concepts (the tradition of Al-Farabi, Avicenna, Averroes (Ibn Rushd), Al-Biruni etc.).

Have a look at this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkXi2wXWhDk

Cheers
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