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What is your stance on the ideas of Richard Dawkins? What is your stance on the ideas of Richard Dawkins?

07-23-2009 , 01:37 AM
Ah. This one brings back memories.
What is your stance on the ideas of Richard Dawkins? Quote
07-23-2009 , 10:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hollowsoul
Richard Dawkins is deliberately disrespectful and critical to/of all religions. He truly believes that religion poses a great threat to the human race on many levels. He is also of the belief that organised religion and the inevitable dogma that comes with it is incompatible with science.

He is a man with the courage of his convictions and has the integrity to be honest about them on the world stage. He has achieved greatness in the world of science and has used this platform to attempt to dispel the taboo of atheism. He has done a lot to mobilise secular communities and while not everyone is going to find his style particularly palatable, he has no doubt raised awareness of the issue and inspired many while doing so.

If nothing else he must be shown respect for his willingness to stand up tall and be counted, never shying away from the issue and never scared to express his ideas in a world often hostile to them.
First full disclosure, I am a theist and am not a fan of Dawkins, although I am completely accept evolution and reject the concept of creationism as a scientific alternative. Having said that, I am forced to agree with everything that you have said with one exception. I do not believe that Richard Dawkins has achieved "greatness in the world of science" if by that you mean he has major scientific accomplishments ala Feynmann or Hawking. He is more of a "Sagan" type. He has made a name by popularizing and communicating known science rather than making contributions to science itself. That does not meet the definition of "greatness" for me at least.
What is your stance on the ideas of Richard Dawkins? Quote
07-23-2009 , 07:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RLK
First full disclosure, I am a theist and am not a fan of Dawkins, although I am completely accept evolution and reject the concept of creationism as a scientific alternative. Having said that, I am forced to agree with everything that you have said with one exception. I do not believe that Richard Dawkins has achieved "greatness in the world of science" if by that you mean he has major scientific accomplishments ala Feynmann or Hawking. He is more of a "Sagan" type. He has made a name by popularizing and communicating known science rather than making contributions to science itself. That does not meet the definition of "greatness" for me at least.
I accept your point however this is a minor disagreement and I shall explain why. I think his greatness lies exactly in his ability to popularise science and to do so in a manner which demonstrates the intricacies and beauty of scientific theories in a form which is understandable to laymen, such as myself. The Selfish Gene is one of the most exciting reads I have come across and this coming from someone who dropped science at the earliest possible stage in order to concentrate on the arts.
What is your stance on the ideas of Richard Dawkins? Quote
07-23-2009 , 07:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hollowsoul
I accept your point however this is a minor disagreement and I shall explain why. I think his greatness lies exactly in his ability to popularise science and to do so in a manner which demonstrates the intricacies and beauty of scientific theories in a form which is understandable to laymen, such as myself. The Selfish Gene is one of the most exciting reads I have come across and this coming from someone who dropped science at the earliest possible stage in order to concentrate on the arts.
I feel the same way.
What is your stance on the ideas of Richard Dawkins? Quote
07-23-2009 , 08:38 PM
OK, cool. It has to do with point of view. I understand your point.
What is your stance on the ideas of Richard Dawkins? Quote
07-24-2009 , 06:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RLK
First full disclosure, I am a theist and am not a fan of Dawkins, although I am completely accept evolution and reject the concept of creationism as a scientific alternative. Having said that, I am forced to agree with everything that you have said with one exception. I do not believe that Richard Dawkins has achieved "greatness in the world of science" if by that you mean he has major scientific accomplishments ala Feynmann or Hawking. He is more of a "Sagan" type. He has made a name by popularizing and communicating known science rather than making contributions to science itself. That does not meet the definition of "greatness" for me at least.
One minor quibble I have with this is that he does have some significant contributions (most notably the concept of the extended phenotype) and helped advance the ideas of gene-centered evolution. So he definitely did make a name for himself in part through contributions to science. Totally agree that he belongs nowhere on the list of greats strictly in terms of those contributions though.
What is your stance on the ideas of Richard Dawkins? Quote
07-26-2009 , 09:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taraz
Can you choose to believe in something you know is false? If you know it's false, how are you really believing in it?



They think the Bible is very special. If you believe in Jesus Christ and you believe that the Bible is the most accurate portrayal of his life and words, then it stands to reason that it is an extremely important text. Also, many moderates do believe that the Bible was inspired by God but that it isn't meant to be taken literally.



So since one irrational belief is founded on another irrational belief it doesn't count? So if the Bible says that 1 + 1 = 3 and I believe it because I think the Bible is supposed to be taken literally, the only irrational belief I hold is that the Bible is inerrant? If this is what you're actually saying, I will argue that fundamentalists hold less irrational beliefs. But then I won't agree that holding fewer irrational beliefs makes you more rational. In this case you could literally believe in an entire fictional world and discount everything you see with your own eyes and ears. I would hardly call this a more rational position.

I already admitted that moderates likely believe more irrational things that they have invented for themselves. I just think that this actually reduces the number of ridiculous things they need to believe. For example, if I take the Bible literally I have to believe that various men healed the sick, turned water into wine, walked on water, parted the Red Sea, sent plagues upon Egypt, lived to be 900 years old, rose from the dead, etc. None of these things is consistent with what a 15-year-old knows about the world. Or I could just hold one belief that God speaks in metaphors and these stories aren't accurate histories of the world. You're still believing that God is speaking to you, but you're not believing in a whole host of supernatural occurrences.

Basically you're penalizing those people who are aware enough to see that some of their holy text is obviously ridiculous/false/impossible. Somehow this gets branded as being less rational.
Instead of talking about rational vs. irrational, try internally consistent.
The extremists world view, while deeply flawed, is internally consistent. If his hooly book was actually written by god, he is right about everything.
Whats so frustrating about the moderate, is that he sees why religious beliefs dosen´t make sense, and then inexplicably professes to have them anyway.
How can you see that a consept makes no sense, and then claim to believe, in the not so destructive parts of it?
I mean if I conclude, that the positioning of the planets has no predictive value on the individual human life, im not gonna use astrology to make small decisions, im just gonna discount it.

What it boils down to for me, is that if you believe in a religion that tells you, that there is an all powerfull, allseeing being, who treatens you torture for all eternity, unless you do everything he says.
The extremist, who does everything he can to please this being, makes more sense than the moderate, who does some of what god tells him, when he feels like it.
What is your stance on the ideas of Richard Dawkins? Quote

      
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