I've been studying this topic for a while. I'm curious to see what some of you think. The more scientific the better if possible.

I think reality has no orgin.

God




Next?

There arn't any scientific theories which describe the orgin of matter so at best all you will get is philosophy or science fiction.

Stu... don't be such a buzz kill.


Drag this fresh topic on please. This is new stuff here.

A magical Jew who thought divorcées were equivalent to adulteresses.

That's the mormons you knucklehead.

Can you be more specific about what "matter" is?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matter

i assume

I think the scientific consensus is "we don't know", whereas the religious consensus is "we do".

Take your pick.

OP,

how about you share what you think to maybe get the ball rolling?

since, ya know, you've studied it for some time now...

I think it seems correct to say matter never "came into existence" unless you mean it might have changed from energy. But whatever its very high level physics if your interested you have a long and expensive education in front of you imo.

Well, according to the NT, a divorcee isn't an adulteress unless she remarries, anyway.

Or did Christians stop following the NT at some point?

Incorrect.

Matthew 5:32 (New International Version)

32But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery.

To ask of the "origin" of matter within the thought processes of today's scientific parlance leads to an endless causal chain or at best a dichotomous incongruity( wave/ matter).

The "origin" of matter can only be ascertained by leaving the materialist plane but in no way does this imply that one is not scientific.

If one considers "matter" then the salient point of "matter' if that of pressure which can be experienced by the human being. The science that does not include the human being in its considerations is condemned to a degenerate degradation. If I, as a human being wishe to clarify "matter" and "pressure" then the tripartite consideration of Man must be considered.

Man is a Thinking, Feeling and Willing being and these are appreciated by the "Head or Nervous System", the "Chest or Respiratory/Cardiac system" known through "Rhythm" and the "Metabolic/Limb system" realized through our digestive tract and limb movements in general.

In the "Head' Man is clearest and known through his thoughts and thinking. In the "Chest" there is more of a "dream like" presentation and relates to feelings. Disrupt the cardiac or respiratory rhythms and note the 'feeling" changes become manifest. "Feelings' are NOT mainly noted in the "Head". OPnly in the "head" or anywhere else in the body in the sense that the "head" system penetrates the other systems and vice versa such that there is a "rhythm" in the "head" because the "chest" system is intermixed in the head and so forth and so on.

And so, "Head" equals Clear and "Chest" equals "dream like" but the Metabolic Limb system is "hidden". The only time one appreciates the digestive system is when illness arises such an upset stomach. The will is unconscious in Man. Likewise in the movements of one's legs the "thought" which says "run" gets lost in the actual activity of the movement and is very much hidden. The lower system is unconscious.

Back to pressure and relating man to "matter". If I consider matter from the point of view of "pressure" then I must understand it's relation to Man. If I were to "press" my finger on another's chest or arm or leg and gradually increase the pressure without relief that individual man would faint into unconsciousness. the connection between 'pressure" and "unconsciousness" links matter with Man's metabolic/limb system but there is more.

If I see the "earth' as the representative of "pressure" and I do, then one notes , for example, that a plant grows, reaches to fruit and flowering and then deteriorates into the production of "seed" and we begin a renewal. Creative growth, flowering and fruit, and then degradation and renewal the Brahman, Shiva and Vishnu of the west, sans comprehension.

Yet one can see that if the "Earth Power of Pressure" is unabated we have a 'clump' of whatever. Therefore the other pole of the cosmic process is "suction". This "suction" is involved with plant growth and also human growth though in a quite different manner. One cannot look at the workings of nature without a consideration of this "suction" effect which leads one into the realm of the other earthly or the supersensible. True, a supersensible or clairvoyant consciousness can 'see" this body but through reason and rationality and thinking one can also know about these realms and included is the world of "suction".

One can consider "suction" as a rich man who loses all his money and as if it couldn't get worse he goes deep into debt. This is the "pressure less" realm and can be seen in its 'suction' effects. In our present intellectual age we note a lot of duality; heaven/hell, wave/particle, mind/matter but this is a difficulty due to our active belief in dualism whether we are conscious or not.

Only a tripartite consideration can rid one of the incongruity as there is a "balance" between "pressure" and 'suction' which leads to "form" and it's myriad manifestations. Holding the "balance" and particular organs are generated. This is the individual world of "feeling" and guess what? This is place of Christ in the hearts of men who aids in bringing balance between "suction' or the Luciferic and "pressure" or Ahraminic.

Only "matter" or "pressure" = Ahriman (read materialist). Only "pressure' or wanting to 'leave the earth" to Lucifer's realm = Lucifer. Man "balances' the temptations in his heart and as the future moves on, more consciously. This is the realm where science will see Christ in the inteworkings of the cosmos as a reality , not a theoretical posibility.

The consensus among the scientific community is a unanimous "I don't know".

When you say, "the more scientific, the better", I don't think you know what you are asking. "Science" is limited to the 5 senses; it is empirical in nature. Real science, known as "hard science", is the kind that any person can do from any religious background. Thus something of the distant past such as the origin of matter cannot be answered by physical examination of what we have in the present. Science overall, or as it used to be known (and more aptly), "Natural Philosophy", goes well beyond the empirical and develops grand theories such as the Big Bang, Darwinian Evolution, and much more. These are not proven and many say not provable, yet something like Darwinian Evolution has been accepted on the basis of men of science believing it. I prefer hard evidence, but if you prefer Natural Philosophy, there are views on the origin of matter that you can google.

I'd like to add this as an aside as to matter. Modern materialistic science secretes this primal man who decides to look at "matter" and perceives its manifestation. Leaving himself out of the earthly equation he then looks as a supposed disinterested observer.

Looking out of the materialist bunker he says" I see that rock and consider it matter". But I have a number system and know somehow (consciously or subconsciously) "matter" is related to pressure and so since I know or am about to know of the balancing scale I will define that rock as the Number "1" and will then define all other rocks via this rock. Easy, breezy and in some manner the periodic table of the elements arises and all of life, if materialistic science runs unabated, is related to that rock which is no more than explaining one rock via another rock , a form of self delusion.

Historically the separation of "faith' and "knowledge" brought about by the churches (yes, religious scientists) has produced our materialist ethos. The religious in our time are as materialistic as the scientists which displays the force of this dualistic loss of our times.

Prior to our present age (about 15th century) this was not so and "scientists" and "religious" would have thought it incomprehensible that the experiences of life would be meaningless as purported via science. To end up in a slag heap at the end of time where all that Mankind has produced would have been meaningless would have been a non starter. To say that an earthquake that brings destruction to the inhabitants and say that this is only the movement of tectonic plates is to deny morality to the human soul and is not in keeping with reality. THE EARTHQUAKE HAD A MORAL TONE IN THE SAME MANNER YOU WOULD FEEL BAD IF IN THE MIDDLE OF AN ASTHMA ATTACK.

Man is all about morality whether from a higher source as argued by some or self individualized as argued by some or any other of the myriad approaches to this realm. the future speaks to man in the midst of bringing the religious and science together but this can only be accomplished by Man considering himself a part of the cosmos and not it's disinterested metrical interpreter. It's complex but much more fulfilling and appreciated a little at a time.

Don't fall for the trap of saying that science doesn't need to speak to meaning and purpose in the world for whatever you call it; religious-scientist or scientist-religious which comes out of our times the cosmos is a tone poem of morality in the same manner as man.

this is one of the better <10 mins vids on origin of existence (cosmology, biology, theology triple package)... would be interested to any theist responses

You forgot to post the link!

oops

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANtpsunRYIs




this should clear up a lot of the argument itt

Ecc 3:11 He (God) hath made every [thing] beautiful in his (mans) time: also he (God) hath set the world in their (mans) heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.

God has designed our minds so that certain things cannot be found out.....

God has set boundries in all mens minds, limitations so that they can only think so far, there are truths about life that can only be known and understood by believing Gods written word.

There are many things that the natural, five senses only believing man will never understand or know......

The spiritual man, the born again Christian man can understand and know much more than the man who relies ONLY upon his five senses for information.

Hbr 11:3 Through believing we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

By believing Gods written word we can know and understand that the ages, and the universe and all that physically exist was made by things that do not appear, things that are not physical but rather spiritual in nature.....

Col 1:17b and by him (God) all things consist....

Act 17:24a God that made the world and all things therein...

That's fairly convenient.

Thats the way it is...............if you do not like it, take it up with Him.....

If you were going to make up a religion - scientology for example - and you wanted an answer for when people start to question too much, wouldn't you say something EXACTLY like that?

I dont think anyone could come up with an answer like that and then have a book that is thousands of years old, which of its ownself, within its ownself claiming to be Gods word and also corroborate it.....