Open Side Menu Go to the Top
Register
To Wager against Christ To Wager against Christ

11-01-2011 , 08:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acemanhattan
I see this quite a bit. It isn't a good comparison. How many pages are written about Christ? How many pages are written about all the other God's combined? If he was as easily dismissed as your quote implies we wouldn't be having 2,000 years worth of conversation about him.

It's catchy cute at a cocktail party, but not intelligent.


No, its pretty intelligent.

The argument put forth here is showing your basic ignorance of other religions. If you are a christian who lives in a predominantly christian nation of course Christ is going to be the focus. What does that prove?

Whenever you have trouble understanding why someone doesn't believe in Christ, imagine how you feel about the prophet Muhammad. Pretty simple.
To Wager against Christ Quote
11-01-2011 , 08:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acemanhattan
I see this quite a bit. It isn't a good comparison. How many pages are written about Christ? How many pages are written about all the other God's combined? If he was as easily dismissed as your quote implies we wouldn't be having 2,000 years worth of conversation about him.

It's catchy cute at a cocktail party, but not intelligent.
Did you know there's more written about bacteria than there is about 'Jesus'? Does this mean we should believe in bacteria? after all, the things written about bacteria are in scientific journals - written and peer-reviewed by scientists - AND we can also observe/see the bacteria using microscopes. Generally, if I can see something - in my mind - it helps its credibility.

In conclusion. The measure that you're using above is ridiculously unreliable.
To Wager against Christ Quote
11-01-2011 , 08:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acemanhattan
It isn't a good comparison. How many pages are written about Christ? How many pages are written about all the other God's combined? If he was as easily dismissed as your quote implies we wouldn't be having 2,000 years worth of conversation about him.

It's catchy at a cocktail party, but that is about it.
Christ as the man, or Christ as the son of god endowed with magical god powers?

You really make this too easy.

It's a great comparison, have you read the Iliad?
To Wager against Christ Quote
11-01-2011 , 08:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sommerset
No, its pretty intelligent.

The argument put forth here is showing your basic ignorance of other religions. If you are a christian who lives in a predominantly christian nation of course Christ is going to be the focus. What does that prove?

Whenever you have trouble understanding why someone doesn't believe in Christ, imagine how you feel about the prophet Muhammad. Pretty simple.
I referenced a 2,000 year window. The predominantly Christian nation that you mention has existed for a small portion of that time. Remove that nation's history and it has very little effect on the type of debate/analysis that has gone on regarding Christ, vs all the other Gods.
To Wager against Christ Quote
11-01-2011 , 08:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by checkm8
Christ as the man, or Christ as the son of god endowed with magical god powers?

You really make this too easy.

It's a great comparison, have you read the Iliad?
What do I make too easy?
To Wager against Christ Quote
11-01-2011 , 08:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acemanhattan
I referenced a 2,000 year window. The predominantly Christian nation that you mention has existed for a small portion of that time. Remove that nation's history and it has very little effect on the type of debate/analysis that has gone on regarding Christ, vs all the other Gods.
I'm talking about your frame of reference here. I find it curious that you just assume more has been written about Christ than any other diety COMBINED. That seems almost certainly false, and I think it seems that way to you because of your position in the world.
To Wager against Christ Quote
11-01-2011 , 08:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sommerset
I'm talking about your frame of reference here. I find it curious that you just assume more has been written about Christ than any other diety COMBINED. That seems almost certainly false, and I think it seems that way to you because of your position in the world.
Nitpicking.

Have you ever walked into a book store dedicated exclusively to Christian topics and seen the number of books and topics?

Do you know of any bookstores in the Western world dedicated to Zeus or Neptune or any other defunct deity?
To Wager against Christ Quote
11-01-2011 , 08:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by VeeDDzz`
Did you know there's more written about bacteria than there is about 'Jesus'? Does this mean we should believe in bacteria? after all, the things written about bacteria are in scientific journals - written and peer-reviewed by scientists - AND we can also observe/see the bacteria using microscopes. Generally, if I can see something - in my mind - it helps its credibility.

In conclusion. The measure that you're using above is ridiculously unreliable.
The point I am making is there is a distinct difference between Christ and "insert any name here". Even if that distinction is simply that we have been seriously talking about him for over 2000 years. That isn't nearly the case of Zeus or any other God that is included in the quotation I mentioned. That fact alone demonstrates that we are comparing apples to oranges here.
To Wager against Christ Quote
11-01-2011 , 08:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splendour
Nitpicking.

Have you ever walked into a book store dedicated exclusively to Christian topics and seen the number of books and topics?

Do you know of any bookstores in the Western world dedicated to Zeus or Neptune or any other defunct deity?
Did you read what I wrote?
To Wager against Christ Quote
11-01-2011 , 08:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sommerset
I'm talking about your frame of reference here. I find it curious that you just assume more has been written about Christ than any other diety COMBINED. That seems almost certainly false, and I think it seems that way to you because of your position in the world.
I never mentioned my position, so let's just clarify that. I don't have to have any position on Christ in order to feel that quote is just charming, but not really insightful.
To Wager against Christ Quote
11-01-2011 , 08:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sommerset
Did you read what I wrote?
Yes I did.

And since the worldwide literacy rate didn't rapidly accelerate until approximately the early 20th century I don't think the writing of other deities even combined could possibly exceed those about Jesus Christ.

Many "deities" have most likely bit the dust with no recording of beliefs about them made at all.
To Wager against Christ Quote
11-01-2011 , 08:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sommerset
I'm talking about your frame of reference here. I find it curious that you just assume more has been written about Christ than any other diety COMBINED. That seems almost certainly false, and I think it seems that way to you because of your position in the world.
If I overstated the fact, the point remains that Christ has been on the world scene for 2,000 years. The fact that so many God's pass in and out of existence and are so easily dismissed, seems to demonstrate that there is something absolutely different about Christ. So different that he can't be turned into the punchline of some one line pithy quote.
To Wager against Christ Quote
11-01-2011 , 08:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acemanhattan
The point I am making is there is a distinct difference between Christ and "insert any name here". Even if that distinction is simply that we have been seriously talking about him for over 2000 years. That isn't nearly the case of Zeus or any other God that is included in the quotation I mentioned. That fact alone demonstrates that we are comparing apples to oranges here.
How about Chinese shen gods who have been around since long before anyone had ever heard of christ? Your cultural bias is super strong here.
To Wager against Christ Quote
11-01-2011 , 08:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acemanhattan
If I overstated the fact, the point remains that Christ has been on the world scene for 2,000 years. The fact that so many God's pass in and out of existence and are so easily dismissed, seems to demonstrate that there is something absolutely different about Christ. So different that he can't be turned into the punchline of some one line pithy quote.
No, it doesn't. You'd like to think it does, because you worship Christ. You seem to think 2000 years is a long time relative to the span of human history. Have you considered that belief in Christ simply hasn't died out yet?
To Wager against Christ Quote
11-01-2011 , 08:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sommerset
How about Chinese shen gods who have been around since long before anyone had ever heard of christ? Your cultural bias is super strong here.
I have no problem if you want to insert the Chinese shen God's along side Christ, provided they meet the criteria that they have been taken seriously for thousands of years. That is the distinction I am attempting to make.

I don't have a pro Christ agenda. I was under the impression his comment was in reference to the Christian God, so I was speaking to that.
To Wager against Christ Quote
11-01-2011 , 09:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splendour
Yes I did.

And since the worldwide literacy rate didn't rapidly accelerate until approximately the early 20th century I don't think the writing of other deities even combined could possibly exceed those about Jesus Christ.

Many "deities" have most likely bit the dust with no recording of beliefs about them made at all.
If that's true that is a product of literacy rates and has very little to do with the truth of Jesus Christ.

And 'm not sure you did read what I wrote. If you had, you would have realized you were making my point for me. I pointed out cultural bias, and you proceeded to tell me Christ rules because he is the one most written about in the western world.
To Wager against Christ Quote
11-01-2011 , 09:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sommerset
No, it doesn't. You'd like to think it does, because you worship Christ. You seem to think 2000 years is a long time relative to the span of human history. Have you considered that belief in Christ simply hasn't died out yet?
Who says bolded is the case? Assume its not.

I could be mistaken, but I think any figure being thought of as God for a 2,000 year time span is pretty unique to human history.

I think you are expecting it will die out any day. I think a stronger case could be made that if it didn't die out yesterday, it's even less likely it will die out tomorrow.
To Wager against Christ Quote
11-01-2011 , 09:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sommerset
No, it doesn't. You'd like to think it does, because you worship Christ. You seem to think 2000 years is a long time relative to the span of human history. Have you considered that belief in Christ simply hasn't died out yet?
Christians tend to believe God manages time. So isn't the ascendancy of Christ for 2,000 years signficant?

Schaff wrote in his General Introduction to his 8 volume work on Christian history the following about the Nature of Church History:

§ 1. Nature of Church History.



History has two sides, a divine and a human. On the part of God, it is his revelation in the order of time (as the creation is his revelation in the order of space), and the successive unfolding of a plan of infinite wisdom, justice, and mercy, looking to his glory and the eternal happiness of mankind. On the part of man, history is the biography of the human race, and the gradual development, both normal and abnormal, of all its physical, intellectual, and moral forces to the final consummation at the general judgment, with its eternal rewards and punishments. The idea of universal history presupposes the Christian idea of the unity of God, and the unity and common destiny of men, and was unknown to ancient Greece and Rome. A view of history which overlooks or undervalues the divine factor starts from deism and consistently runs into atheism; while the opposite view, which overlooks the free agency of man and his moral responsibility and guilt, is essentially fatalistic and pantheistic.

From the human agency we may distinguish the Satanic, which enters as a third power into the history of the race. In the temptation of Adam in Paradise, the temptation of Christ in the wilderness, and at every great epoch, Satan appears as the antagonist of God, endeavoring to defeat the plan of redemption and the progress of Christ’s kingdom, and using weak and wicked men for his schemes, but is always defeated in the end by the superior wisdom of God.

The central current and ultimate aim of universal history is the Kingdom of God established by Jesus Christ. This is the grandest and most comprehensive institution in the world, as vast as humanity and as enduring as eternity. All other institutions are made subservient to it, and in its interest the whole world is governed. It is no after-thought of God, no subsequent emendation of the plan of creation, but it is the eternal forethought, the controlling idea, the beginning, the middle, and the end of all his ways and works. The first Adam is a type of the second Adam; creation looks to redemption as the solution of its problems. Secular history, far from controlling sacred history, is controlled by it, must directly or indirectly subserve its ends, and can only be fully understood in the central light of Christian truth and the plan of salvation. The Father, who directs the history of the world, "draws to the Son," who rules the history of the church, and the Son leads back to the Father, that "God may be all in all." "All things," says St. Paul, "were created through Christ and unto Christ: and He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. And He is the head of the body, the Church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the pre-eminence." Col. 1:16–18. "The Gospel," says John von Müller, summing up the final result of his lifelong studies in history, "is the fulfilment of all hopes, the perfection of all philosophy, the interpreter of all revolutions, the key of all seeming contradictions of the physical and moral worlds; it is life—it is immortality."

The history of the church is the rise and progress of the kingdom of heaven upon earth, for the glory of God and the salvation of the world. It begins with the creation of Adam, and with that promise of the serpent-bruiser, which relieved the loss of the paradise of innocence by the hope of future redemption from the curse of sin. It comes down through the preparatory revelations under the patriarchs, Moses, and the prophets, to the immediate forerunner of the Saviour, who pointed his followers to the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. But this part of its course was only introduction. Its proper starting-point is the incarnation of the Eternal Word, who dwelt among us and revealed his glory, the glory as of the only-begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth; and next to this, the miracle of the first Pentecost, when the Church took her place as a Christian institution, filled with the Spirit of the glorified Redeemer and entrusted with the conversion of all nations. Jesus Christ, the God-Man and Saviour of the world, is the author of the new creation, the soul and the head of the church, which is his body and his bride. In his person and work lies all the fulness of the Godhead and of renewed humanity, the whole plan of redemption, and the key of all history from the creation of man in the image of God to the resurrection of the body unto everlasting life.

This is the objective conception of church history.

In the subjective sense of the word, considered as theological science and art, church history is the faithful and life-like description of the origin and progress of this heavenly kingdom. It aims to reproduce in thought and to embody in language its outward and inward development down to the present time. It is a continuous commentary on the Lord’s twin parables of the mustard-seed and of the leaven. It shows at once how Christianity spreads over the world, and how it penetrates, transforms, and sanctifies the individual and all the departments and institutions of social life. It thus embraces not only the external fortunes of Christendom, but more especially her inward experience, her religious life, her mental and moral activity, her conflicts with the ungodly world, her sorrows and sufferings, her joys and her triumphs over sin and error. It records the deeds of those heroes of faith "who subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the months of lions, quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of aliens."

From Jesus Christ, since his manifestation in the flesh, an unbroken stream of divine light and life has been and is still flowing, and will continue to flow, in ever-growing volume through the waste of our fallen race; and all that is truly great and good and holy in the annals of church history is due, ultimately, to the impulse of his spirit. He is the fly-wheel in the world’s progress. But he works upon the world through sinful and fallible men, who, while as self-conscious and free agents they are accountable for all their actions, must still, willing or unwilling, serve the great purpose of God. As Christ, in the days of his flesh, was bated, mocked, and crucified, his church likewise is assailed and persecuted by the powers of darkness. The history of Christianity includes therefore a history of Antichrist. With an unending succession of works of saving power and manifestations of divine truth and holiness, it uncovers also a fearful mass of corruption and error. The church militant must, from its very nature, be at perpetual warfare with the world, the flesh, and the devil, both without and within. For as Judas sat among the apostles, so "the man of sin" sits in the temple of God; and as even a Peter denied the Lord, though he afterwards wept bitterly and regained his holy office, so do many disciples in all ages deny him in word and in deed.

But on the other hand, church history shows that God is ever stronger than Satan, and that his kingdom of light puts the kingdom of darkness to shame. The Lion of the tribe of Judah has bruised the head of the serpent. With the crucifixion of Christ his resurrection also is repeated ever anew in the history of his church on earth; and there has never yet been a day without a witness of his presence and power ordering all things according to his holy will. For he has received all power in heaven and in earth for the good of his people, and from his heavenly throne he rules even his foes. The infallible word of promise, confirmed by experience, assures us that all corruptions, heresies, and schisms must, under the guidance of divine wisdom and love, subserve the cause of truth, holiness, and peace; till, at the last judgment, Christ shall make his enemies his footstool, and rule undisputed with the sceptre of righteousness and peace, and his church shall realize her idea and destiny as "the fullness of him that filleth all in all."

Then will history itself, in its present form, as a struggling and changeful development, give place to perfection, and the stream of time come to rest in the ocean of eternity, but this rest will be the highest form of life and activity in God and for God.

http://www.ccel.org/s/schaff/history/1__gen.htm
To Wager against Christ Quote
11-01-2011 , 09:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sommerset
If that's true that is a product of literacy rates and has very little to do with the truth of Jesus Christ.

And 'm not sure you did read what I wrote. If you had, you would have realized you were making my point for me. I pointed out cultural bias, and you proceeded to tell me Christ rules because he is the one most written about in the western world.
I think you misunderstood me. I never said Christ ruled because he's the most written about. I would never think that. I think Christ rules because he's worthy to rule and because God intends him to rule. The fact that there's a lot of writings in the world just show God's will is prevailing.
To Wager against Christ Quote
11-01-2011 , 09:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acemanhattan
Who says this is the case?

I could be mistaken, but I think any figure being thought of as God for a 2,000 year time span is pretty unique to human history.

I think you are expecting it will die out any day. I think a stronger case could be made that if it didn't die out yesterday, it's even less likely it will die out tomorrow.
Apologize for that. That was an assumption I made that I'm happy to rescind if that's not the case.

If you think Christ is impressive for his 2000 years, why don't you give Vishnu and all the Hindu gods there props? Hinduism has been here since before the common era. Again, what is this supposed to prove?

DO you think if you were in ancient Greece you would have "expected" zues to die out?
To Wager against Christ Quote
11-01-2011 , 09:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sommerset
Apologize for that. That was an assumption I made that I'm happy to rescind if that's not the case.

If you think Christ is impressive for his 2000 years, why don't you give Vishnu and all the Hindu gods there props? Hinduism has been here since before the common era. Again, what is this supposed to prove?

DO you think if you were in ancient Greece you would have "expected" zues to die out?
Again, I was simply speaking about Christ because I was under the impression that was the target of the quote.

What I think it proves is that there isn't such a similarity between Christ and the dismissed Gods from the quote that it is a good comparison. I'm saying that in a conversation about Christ, that quote can't be used to make a solid point because it's comparing apples to oranges. If it was in reference to Scientology, sure.

No, I don't think I would have expected Zeus to die out. However I think that if we compare the shelf life of Christ and Zeus, we have a much stronger case that Christ isn't going to die out.
To Wager against Christ Quote
11-01-2011 , 09:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acemanhattan
Again, I was simply speaking about Christ because I was under the impression that was the target of the quote.

What I think it proves is that there isn't such a similarity between Christ and the dismissed Gods from the quote that it is a good comparison. I'm saying that in a conversation about Christ, that quote can't be used to make a solid point because it's comparing apples to oranges. If it was in reference to Scientology, sure.

No, I don't think I would have expected Zeus to die out. However I think that if we compare the shelf life of Christ and Zeus, we have a much stronger case that Christ isn't going to die out.
The shelf life of God x. Is this your new measure of evidence? Do I need to tell you why this measure is also ridiculous?

You either believe in fact/scientific evidence or you believe in faith/non-scientific evidence.

Unfortunately, those who hold faith-based beliefs never have reliable or unbiased measures of evidence. For this very reason, their belief is primarily upheld by nothing but faith. Yet, these same people, do not extend this faith to other areas of their life, in which they hypocritically enjoy the fruits of scientific labour and the measures used within that labour, all while advocating faith-based belief and unscientific justification/measurement.
To Wager against Christ Quote
11-01-2011 , 09:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acemanhattan
Again, I was simply speaking about Christ because I was under the impression that was the target of the quote.

What I think it proves is that there isn't such a similarity between Christ and the dismissed Gods from the quote that it is a good comparison. I'm saying that in a conversation about Christ, that quote can't be used to make a solid point because it's comparing apples to oranges. If it was in reference to Scientology, sure.

No, I don't think I would have expected Zeus to die out. However I think that if we compare the shelf life of Christ and Zeus, we have a much stronger case that Christ isn't going to die out.
But the quote isn't speaking of "dismissed gods" chiefly. It is just talking about other gods. And being that there are Hindu gods that are still worshiped today, what exactly is your argument?

A believer simply need recall how he feels about worshiping vishnu (if the age helps) to understand how a non-believer feels about christ.
To Wager against Christ Quote
11-02-2011 , 01:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acemanhattan
It isn't a good comparison. How many pages are written about Christ? How many pages are written about all the other God's combined? If he was as easily dismissed as your quote implies we wouldn't be having 2,000 years worth of conversation about him.

It's catchy at a cocktail party, but that is about it.
Who cares how popular Jesus is, it doesn't matter - what is so hard to understand about that?? People are dumb, ideas gain momentum. Do you remember pogs with the dazzling, holographic slammers? Not to mention religion basically acts as a drug for many, it's not surprising that it's a popular choice. Just look at the pharmaceutical industry in the last 100 years...

"How many pages are written about Jesus performing miracles" is the only question that matters, because it cuts right though the subjective (popularity contest), and focuses on the objective (evidence).

..And once you simply the question down to the meat and potatoes it's quite easy to see why it's a GREAT comparison, because outside of the Bible there isn't enough real objective evidence to treat Christianity any different than a whole slew of other religious persuasions.
To Wager against Christ Quote
11-02-2011 , 03:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by VeeDDzz`
The shelf life of God x. Is this your new measure of evidence? Do I need to tell you why this measure is also ridiculous?

You either believe in fact/scientific evidence or you believe in faith/non-scientific evidence.

Unfortunately, those who hold faith-based beliefs never have reliable or unbiased measures of evidence. For this very reason, their belief is primarily upheld by nothing but faith. Yet, these same people, do not extend this faith to other areas of their life, in which they hypocritically enjoy the fruits of scientific labour and the measures used within that labour, all while advocating faith-based belief and unscientific justification/measurement.
The shelf life of God x is NOT the evidence.

The shelf life of God x is dictated by the type of evidence for God x though. If the shelf life for a single God x is over 2,000 years that demonstrates that the evidence is distinctly different from the evidences for the god's who's shelf life is under 2,000 years.
To Wager against Christ Quote

      
m