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View:fact that Jesus has not appeared after technology advanced is evidence against Xtianity View:fact that Jesus has not appeared after technology advanced is evidence against Xtianity

09-27-2010 , 01:12 PM
No video recordings of miracles proves they are extremely rare in current times (eg of the order 1 in 2000 years events). Thus even if God is true, for the purpose of making predictions about the world, we would do as well assuming he is false.

The Bible documents miracles much more frequently in the old testament. The fact that the number and significance of miracles is inversely proportionate to the technology available to record them is exactly what we would expect if the Bible were untrue. However, this does not prove that miracles are false as God could have a reason for this (eg wanting people to have faith rather than be persuaded by evidence). I would imagine most atheists would think the argument in brackets was ridiculous though so happy for any theists to posit a different reason.
View:fact that Jesus has not appeared after technology advanced is evidence against Xtianity Quote
09-27-2010 , 01:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeyDiamonds
Better because you want it to be better but from a strictly scientific stance...it is exactly the same thing. His point is that since we have become so much more techno-savvy, if Jesus did exist we should have captured something proving this by now. The lack of said capture does no more to disprove his existence than it does to prove it. You can substitute alien, Bigfoot, ghosts or a number of other things for Jesus in the above statement and the probability is the same.
That's not his argument. His argument is why did God choose to do it at that period where information was so hard to verify/preserve and not again later. This is exactly the same for aliens who chose only to make contact with one small group of people in one small period of human history.
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09-27-2010 , 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by lawdude
You don't actually understand the argument. The argument isn't that it proves the falsity of the Jesus story, BUT THAT ANYONE WHO WAS GOING TO FABRICATE A STORY WOULD PLACE THE STORY IN EXACTLY THAT ERA, WHEREAS IF RELIGIOUS CLAIMS WERE TRUE SUPERNATURAL EVENTS WOULD OCCUR WITH EQUAL FREQUENCY NOW THAT WE HAVE BETTER DOCUMENTATION.

In any event, you will note that Aaron W. knows this, which is why he has to take the position that in fact we don't actually have any better capability of documenting current events. He wouldn't take such an obviously silly position if he did not know this was a real problem.
Maybe I don't understand the argument you wish to pose but I understand the topic: fact that Jesus has not appeared after technology advanced is evidence against Xtianit

And it clearly is incorrect.
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09-27-2010 , 01:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeyDiamonds
You can substitute alien, Bigfoot, ghosts or a number of other things for Jesus in the above statement and the probability is the same.
Isn't the thing about aliens, bigfoot and ghosts that they don't exist either!

[By aliens I mean the little green men who abduct stupid Americans rather than life on other planets which is beyond our technological expertise to detect.]
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09-27-2010 , 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by bixby snyder
Not really a great argument if that's the case. Makes assumptions about the nature of God (that many would feel humans aren't equipped to comprehend), and some would claim there's "no reason to doubt his existence" even without modern miracles or the return of Jesus.
Perhaps you can expand on this a bit more? I.e. what false assumptions about the nature of God are implicit in this argument (notice that it is not necessary to fully comprehend something to believe that it exists)? And who is justifiably asserting that there is no reason to doubt the existence of God?
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09-27-2010 , 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by G1982
Isn't the thing about aliens, bigfoot and ghosts that they don't exist either!

[By aliens I mean the little green men who abduct stupid Americans rather than life on other planets which is beyond our technological expertise to detect.]
I don't discount either of those.

The fact that I personally haven't experienced either...nor have I been presented evidence to make me believe in either.

I guess I'm agnostic when it comes to those things. I don't believe in them but i accept that others do and that they may in fact exist.

Last edited by JoeyDiamonds; 09-27-2010 at 01:27 PM. Reason: mis-speeled
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09-27-2010 , 01:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lawdude
And I stand by my claim that the fact that we can document events better now is unarguable and because you are not a complete idiot, you are simply lying when you claim otherwise.
But this isn't the claim in OP that I'm disputing.
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09-27-2010 , 01:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeyDiamonds
I don't discount either of those.

The fact that I personally haven't experienced either...nor have I been presented evidence to make me believe in either.

I guess I'm agnostic when it comes to those things. I don't believe in them but i accept that others do and that they may in fact exist.
My feelings on bigfoot and aliens (caveat from previous post accepted) pretty much reflect my feelings on God and are not far from those you present above.

I do not see enough evidence to make me believe in them so I do not believe. I also believe there are good arguments against their existence. So while I would not claim 100% certainty, I think existence is extremely unlikely.
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09-27-2010 , 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Original Position
Perhaps you can expand on this a bit more? I.e. what false assumptions about the nature of God are implicit in this argument (notice that it is not necessary to fully comprehend something to believe that it exists)? And who is justifiably asserting that there is no reason to doubt the existence of God?
If I understand, the argument reads:

1) The God presented to us in the major Western religions would not leave us with reason to doubt his existence.
2) We have reason to doubt his existence.
Therefore 3) The God presented to us in the major Western religions does not exist.

I admit it's difficult to refute 2), at least convincingly. Though there are certainly people who are unwaveringly sure of that fact that God exists, and the question becomes an issue of faith, and this argument will never be convincing. Maybe that should be taken as a given though and wasn't worth bringing up (quickly searched; link).

But 1) is a pretty huge claim, and one I doubt most Christian scholarly authorities agree with. If a theist suggested that it's entirely possible God would leave us reason to doubt his existence (since, as you were suggesting, it's not necessary that we completely understand God), doesn't this argument fail?
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09-27-2010 , 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by lawdude
This came up in another thread but I think it deserves a separate one.

According to Christians, Jesus came to earth either once (orthodox) or twice (LDS). In addition, all sorts of miracles, i.e., unexplainable supernatural occurrences, supposedly occurred during the periods when Jesus was here. While these events occurred after there was some embryonic form of "recorded history", they also occurred before the following technologies:

1. The printing press. This is really important because the invention of newspaper journalism increased dramatically the reliability of information that we had about what was going on in the world. Newspapers recorded things nearly contemporaneously; the best ones also attempted to hold their reporters to some standard of accurate reporting. An appearance by Jesus, or a miracle, would have been contemporaneously recorded once print journalism became commonplace.

2. Sound recording. This would have allowed us to capture the sound of Jesus on a record, tape, or computer file. It would also allow for contemporaneous documentation from the witnesses of any miracles.

3. Radio broadcasting. This would allow us to disseminate the contemporaneous reports described in 2. to anyone who wished to hear them.

4. Video recording and television. This would allow us to fully document any miracles and any appearance by Jesus as well as any resurrection.

The point is, it's really, really convenient to be able to claim that all these miracles, including a resurrection(!), happened but damn, it just happened that it all occurred before we had sufficient technology to properly document it. And that now, God either doesn't feel like or lacks the capability to make another appearance and induce more supernatural miracles, even though such an appearance would greatly increase the likelihood that the humans She supposedly loves will recognize Her as their Lord.

The claim that God made no appearances during prehistory, two during the time when history was being embryonically recorded but there was no contemporaneous reporting and documentation, and none after humans invented the means to contemporaneously document events, is unbelievable on its face, and is especially hard to square with the notion of a God that supposedly loves humanity, wants humans to go to heaven, and conditions entry to heaven on faith in Her.

It is easy to square with religions being false, however. Because in order to create fantastic claims that cannot be obviously and quickly refuted, it is necessary that the events claimed happened after history started to be recorded but before there were reliable means of documenting events. That's the sweet spot, and the major world religions hit it.
Stop wasting your time telling us what you think and start doing some actual research.
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09-27-2010 , 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by G1982
My feelings on bigfoot and aliens (caveat from previous post accepted) pretty much reflect my feelings on God and are not far from those you present above.

I do not see enough evidence to make me believe in them so I do not believe. I also believe there are good arguments against their existence. So while I would not claim 100% certainty, I think existence is extremely unlikely.
Extremely well put.
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09-27-2010 , 01:47 PM
Jesus appears on toast all the time.


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09-27-2010 , 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Wamy Einehouse
His argument is why did God choose to do it at that period where information was so hard to verify/preserve and not again later.
Surely you can see that this is not an argument of any kind, not even a bad one. It doesn't even qualify as a completely formed assertion. Actually, it's most akin to lol Dawkins mass market handwaving.
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09-27-2010 , 01:57 PM
He may be wrong in saying its evidence against the biblical God. But it is odd that God would be out proud and indisputably loud for a fraction of humans existence and now hes back in the closet.
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09-27-2010 , 02:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by batair
He may be wrong in saying its evidence against the biblical God. But it is odd that God would be out proud and indisputably loud for a fraction of humans existence and now hes back in the closet.
Where is this assertion? I was expecting it, but it never showed up. Maybe it sneaked by me.
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09-27-2010 , 02:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by batair
He may be wrong in saying its evidence against the biblical God. But it is odd that God would be out proud and indisputably loud for a fraction of humans existence and now hes back in the closet.
Sure. I'd go a bit further and say it seems odd to us given that we aren't God and can't know his intentions, desires, or wisdom, but that's not important.

Are we done here?
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09-27-2010 , 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Concerto
Where is this assertion? I was expecting it, but it never showed up. Maybe it sneaked by me.
The title.

"fact that Jesus has not appeared after technology advanced is evidence against Xtianit"


Quote:
Originally Posted by bixby snyder
Sure. I'd go further as to say it seems odd to us given that we aren't God and can't know his intentions, desires, or wisdom, but that's not important.

Are we done here?
Yes, i agree and said the biblical God and his intentions are odd.

Although i would add his actions are cruel from my perspective depending on which version of Christianity are true.
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09-27-2010 , 02:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by batair
The title.

"fact that Jesus has not appeared after technology advanced is evidence against Xtianit"



Yes, i agree and said the biblical God and his intentions are odd.

Although i would add his actions are cruel from my perspective depending on which version of Christianity are true.
Technology is always advancing.
View:fact that Jesus has not appeared after technology advanced is evidence against Xtianity Quote
09-27-2010 , 02:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by batair
The title.

"fact that Jesus has not appeared after technology advanced is evidence against Xtianit"
This appears to be the conclusion which the OP intends to arrive at.

I mean, where does that assertions show up within the development of the actual argument?
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09-27-2010 , 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by we're all fishes
Technology is always advancing.
This is false.
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09-27-2010 , 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by we're all fishes
Stop wasting your time telling us what you think and start doing some actual research.
This is a non-response. I suppose your research shows that video recording existed in the first century CE.
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09-27-2010 , 02:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Concerto
This appears to be the conclusion which the OP intends to arrive at.

I mean, where does that assertions show up within the development of the actual argument?
Idk. But the title is one.
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09-27-2010 , 02:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bixby snyder
<snip>
But 1) is a pretty huge claim, and one I doubt most Christian scholarly authorities agree with. If a theist suggested that it's entirely possible God would leave us reason to doubt his existence (since, as you were suggesting, it's not necessary that we completely understand God), doesn't this argument fail?
I agree that this is where most of the interesting action is on this argument. Many Christian theologians and philosophers have attempted to rebut this argument by appealing to the "hiddenness" of God. Basically, that God has reasons to not make her existence obvious to everyone. While I find these claims largely unconvincing, I think they probably defeat the logical version of this argument.
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09-27-2010 , 02:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by batair
He may be wrong in saying its evidence against the biblical God. But it is odd that God would be out proud and indisputably loud for a fraction of humans existence and now hes back in the closet.
Considering the world is how many billion years old and how long has some form of man walked on Earth? I don't think it's odd.

It's only been 2000 years since he last walked the Earth.... may be another 200,000 before he returns.
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09-27-2010 , 02:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lawdude
This is a non-response. I suppose your research shows that video recording existed in the first century CE.
What are you going to say when video recordings become an invalid source of proof and new forms of media arise?
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