Quote:
Originally Posted by duffe
I don't know. What about a weak deist who believes basically that anything that exists has an uncaused cause behind it, without really denoting uncaused cause as supernatural? Or what about an emanationism? Plotinus' One, is supernatural by a physicalist's accounts, yet he didn't really consider It outside of nature, more of nature or the natural as coming from It.
I didn't see anyone address this (but maybe I missed it).
Rizeagainst is making a very specific point using language somewhat precisely. This particular use of language is confusing because it does not come up frequently in ordinary discourse.
Neither of your examples are counter-examples.
Think of it this way. You've heard the expression "you're either with us or you're against us." Well, no. I could be with you, against you, or neutral on the matter, or with mixed feelings. So in the context of religion, a similar kind of claim is frequently made: either you believe there
is a god, or you believe there
is not a god. Well, no again. You may (1) believe in a god, or you may (2) believe that a specific god (or any god(s) at all) do not exist,
or you may (3) not know/think one way or the other.
The tricky part is that atheism, as many young and/or "activist" atheists define it, is a word that encompasses everyone in group (2) AND group (3).
As long as you cannot hold your hand over your heart and say, "I believe in gods," you are an atheist.
Another analogy that gets tossed around a lot is "do you believe there are an odd number of stars?" No, I don't. "Aha! So you must believe there are an even number of stars!" No, I don't. I don't believe either; I simply don't know the answer, even though I suppose one of them must be true. And so it is with the existence of gods.
On the other hand, if someone proposes a specific god, say, my laptop computer, then I definitely do believe in that god -- I'm typing on it right now! But if someone then claims that this god/laptop-computer has the power to raise the dead... I become skeptical, and I require more than simply their word, because honestly this looks and feels like an ordinary laptop, and raising of the dead is not something ordinary laptops can do.
Hopefully this is clear... but it is late so forgive me if it isn't.