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Two ancient (and modern) motivations for ascribing exhaustive definite foreknowledge to God: Two ancient (and modern) motivations for ascribing exhaustive definite foreknowledge to God:

11-09-2009 , 11:08 PM
This is the title of a recent article by Greg Boyd. The paper deals with Hellenistic view of God's omniscience. A subject that I find fascinating. I know that NR and I have had to agree to disagree on this topic, but I am curious as to what the other theists (and atheists if you care, but I doubt many her think about or concern themselves with this) here think. I would love it if Aaron W would comment even if you do not want to read the paper, as I do not know your view on this subject and would love to here it.

I feel this is an important subject as it effects how we perceive God, and thus is worthy of at least a little investigation. If those of you that are not familiar with the debate want to learn a little you can do a wiki on open theism.

http://www.gregboyd.org/wp-content/u...otivations.pdf
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11-09-2009 , 11:55 PM
It seems like merely a debate on hard determinism (or borderline fatalism) versus the differing alternatives.

Personally I don't understand how prophecies and the revelation does not need to require a fair bit of fatalism. The bible doesn't say that god will "try" and send the messiah or that he "hopefully" will win at Megiddion.

Even the story of Job, which is this great explanation of the existence of despair and misery seems to be a story where though maybe Job was given a bit of choice,his three sons and seven daughters where not when they die at the devil's hand in an event where the devil where actually granted permission by god to make the catastrophe happen.

Maybe one could argue that not all events are set in stone, but it seems that surrounding a large number of things there really is no choice. Regardless if it is about specific persona in the bible or grand scale prophecies of things to come.
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11-10-2009 , 12:24 AM
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It seems like merely a debate on hard determinism (or borderline fatalism) versus the differing alternatives.
This is definitely an aspect to it, I would not say that it encompasses everything surrounding the debate though.

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Personally I don't understand how prophecies and the revelation does not need to require a fair bit of fatalism. The bible doesn't say that god will "try" and send the messiah or that he "hopefully" will win at Megiddion.
You have to understand the open theist position first (of course there are a couple though). As an open theist I would not say that nothing can be known about the future, but that the future contains some possibilities. Also, that when dealing with free will agents that not every decision made must be or is a free will decision. The choices that we make throughout our lives effect our future choices to the point that eventually we would become deterministic. Not because of outside forces but because we created that reality. So it is possible that at time t agent X will do Y. So it is possible to know what certain people will do in a given situation. It is also possible to determine more of a group behavior like we do particles. I do not know what any of the particles in the chair that I am sitting in will do, but as a group I can predict that the chair will stay a solid. So even though God might not know which specific person he will utilize in a situation, it would still be possible to know at specific times that there will be a person that he can utilize. Many of postulated that this is impart what was being said in the NT when they talk about Christ coming at the "perfect time".

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Even the story of Job, which is this great explanation of the existence of despair and misery seems to be a story where though maybe Job was given a bit of choice,his three sons and seven daughters where not when they die at the devil's hand in an event where the devil where actually granted permission by god to make the catastrophe happen.
When talking about the book of Job it is important bare in mind the prose that it was written in. Have you read the book of Job? It is not exactly a strict account of just the facts, it is a fairly "playish" like book. Many scholars believe because of the type of literature that it is that the opening "scene" is merely a literary device used to let the audience in on something that they people in the "play" would not know. This becomes evident when you get to the end and realize that the "moral of the story" is that we as humans really have no idea what is going on outside of our very limited perception so we should not make assumptions as to why something is happening or not happening and to trust God.

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Maybe one could argue that not all events are set in stone, but it seems that surrounding a large number of things there really is no choice. Regardless if it is about specific persona in the bible or grand scale prophecies of things to come.
Kind of, mainstream christianity rejects the idea though that even somethings are not set in stone, at least from God's perspective. I think that I have shown (at least I started) that under the open view of God's omniscience prophecies are still possible, and God's is still capable of bringing his will to pass.

Side note, thank you for participating in this thread, I do not think that many will bother. It is also nice to discuss this with someone that will not end up just say "well you can't understand God ways" which translates into "I cannot defend my position but I will continue to assert that I am right" which is how many times this conversation ends up when i talk with theists. (this was not the case with NR)
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11-10-2009 , 12:38 AM
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This becomes evident when you get to the end and realize that the "moral of the story" is that we as humans really have no idea what is going on outside of our very limited perception so we should not make assumptions as to why something is happening or not happening and to trust God.
I'm trying to follow. "trust God" to --
a) know what the outcome will be from what is happening. or
b) not know what the outcome will be from what is happening.
?? ??
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